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Post by BillCogswell on Jan 18, 2006 12:10:15 GMT -5
How many of you train your grappling with reality in mind? Meaning, when you grapple do you train with "sport" in mind or do you also consider what would work in a real situation? Personally I don't teach my students any sportive technique that wouldn't translate well to a real street fight. Granted I am not a sport oriented guy but I just don't like to learn something that will only be useful in a sporting event. There are also no holds that I refuse to let people learn or do in cla*s, so long as they all recognize that safety and respect come first. When I trained at one BJJ school for 3.5 years I was never allowed to use neckcranks or twisting leglocks, this to me seemed crazy. I understand the need to ban something that was potentially a liability as those two locks probably have the most potential to cause severe injury. But, they are legitimate holds. If there's one body part attack I teach my students to go for it is the neck! In a real situation (providing it has turned into a grappling range fight) going for the neck is the smartest thing to do. Cutting off the control panel (the brain) is the fastest way to stop a threat in my opinion. I'm probably just babbling but I thought I'd see if anyone else trains their grappling game wiht reality in mind.
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Post by Vince on Jan 19, 2006 15:01:15 GMT -5
Great post Bill... and this is a very important issue. It is so important to train for the reality of a real fighting situation. I always stress this with my students. When we are simulating a real fight, we start standing and work kickboxing, clinching, striking within the clinch, biting & eye gouging (simulated), throws, all ground positions, strikes, and submissions. We'll throw weapons in the mix randomly, and even have "your opponent's buddy" sneak up behind you and join in the mix. Sometimes we'll start with with guy with a hidden rubber dagger in his shorts that he'll pull out on the ground.
I've been to some schools where all the do is submission grappling. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realize they aren't training for a real fight... they are training for a grappling contest. This is not only for schools that only do grappling... but also for schools that only do 1 thing or one style of martial art. They are not preparing for a real fight.
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getgoin
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Post by getgoin on Jan 20, 2006 0:28:07 GMT -5
The real deal is all that is needed. If you can't work something against a resistant opponent, in different situations or surroundings, it's not needed.
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Jan 20, 2006 4:17:34 GMT -5
i think you should train with reality in mind, but also realize that reality will probably never happen. At least if you are smart enough, have good sense, and know how to handle situations with verbal tact and grace, as well as knowing how to simply avoid trouble.
That being said, i think you should primarily train for reasons that motivate you personally.... getting fit, winning titles, self defense knowledge, etc....
a real fight of course is a wild sprint that will rise up suddenly and ususally should be avoided at all costs. Normally people that are intent on fighting will almost always have "back up"....such as another friend(s), or a knife/gun, etc..... The caliber of individual that will pick fights in public usually will have some of these tricks up their sleeves.
good grappling skills, takedowns, throws, and muay thai stand up are excellent to train in so that you can at least strike with somebody, and have a chance to control standup/takedowns.....
after that, in a street fight i wouldn't say necessarily that neck cranks are really that great....yeah, they are effective, but as soon as the guy says "OK stop", and you let go, he will go right back to fighting. That is unless you are willing to make a person a quadraplegic for the rest of their lives like Christopher Reeves and breathing with a ventilator. In that case crank it all the way.....but you would really have to be in an extreme situation to put on a neck crank all the way. Normally if you release a neck crank the person isn't disabled after that. Unless you have such perfect control that you can sprain a guys neck without causeing permanent injury (a fine line that few can walk).....you either have to choke somebody almost unconcious, or twist their shoulder with a kimura, etc. so that they have trouble using it for a brief period....this pain/dysfunction will make them stop....
more than likely your first choice won't be to roll on the pavement to get a heel hook, but if you are going to get a leg lock then a heel hook is good, but you are potentially going to eat a lot of punches with bare fists while you are trying to lock it up. And you would have to be willing to permanently injure them b/c of the same reason listed above..... if you don't pick a sub that will not only hurt them but either disable them, or "near disable" them and cause severe pain and temporary disability after you release it, then you will just have to continue the fight once you let go.....
In most situations i believe that we would pick a sub that "nearly disables" and causes short term disability to end a fight....which subs those are could be debated.
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Post by BillCogswell on Jan 20, 2006 7:24:20 GMT -5
"That being said, i think you should primarily train for reasons that motivate you personally.... getting fit, winning titles, self defense knowledge, etc...." Exactly, but my post does mention why I train for the most part, for reality. Good points as everyone will have a different motivations fro training. When I first started training years ago I had the same motivation, to be able to defend myself or stop an attacker quickly in a real situation. I was just curious as to how many people trained with the same mindset I have in training. That doesn't mean it's the right or wrong way to train, just curious if I was alone in this . "after that, in a street fight i wouldn't say necessarily that neck cranks are really that great....yeah, they are effective, but as soon as the guy says "OK stop", and you let go, he will go right back to fighting." Very true but it is the same for any "submission" when it comes to a street attack. I should have been more clear when I said attack the neck in the street. I didn't mean specifically neckcranks as I wrote: "If there's one body part attack I teach my students to go for it is the neck! In a real situation (providing it has turned into a grappling range fight) going for the neck is the smartest thing to do. Cutting off the control panel (the brain) is the fastest way to stop a threat in my opinion." By "attack the neck" I would most definetly choose a choke over a crank on the street. The neckcrank in a street attack would be used as an end all for me or as a way to setup the choke out.
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Post by victorparlati on Jan 21, 2006 19:57:18 GMT -5
Good post, Bill. I train only for real combat - not sport at all. Combine Traditional Wing Chun kung fu with boxing and catch-a-catch-can wrestling. But when we go to clinch or on the ground - it's all about doing what will actually work if it were a real streetfight - so we use strikes, gouges, elbows, rips, attacks to the groin, even bites.
But that said - the only all-out sparring (full speed, full contact) we do is standup striking and kicking with full head-to-toe protective gear (gloves, chest protector, groin cup, headgear with facecage, shin and knee pads)....when on the ground using rips - it's never completely all out so that rips to the eyes, for example...and not done to the point of injury, bites are soft, etc.
I agree 100% with where you're coming from.
As for neck cranks, your comments remind me of some words of wisdom recently uttered by UFC's Matt Hughes: he said that in a real fight against someone who's really trying to hurt you - there are 3 ways to end the fight successfully:
1) Punch or kick him so many times that he's either unconscious or close to it.
2) Break a bone or tendon - so the pain he's in makes it imposssible for him to continue to be a threat.
3) Choke him into unconsciousness or close to it.
(I'm sure the same applies to your ideas about neck cranks - they are indeed very dangerous and can be a very decisive fight-ender).
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Post by BillCogswell on Jan 21, 2006 20:01:29 GMT -5
"it's all about doing what will actually work if it were a real streetfight"
Exactly, good post Victor!
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Post by victorparlati on Jan 21, 2006 20:08:06 GMT -5
Sorry Bill...I added a few things to my post after you replied (hadn't seen your reply when I did so).
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Post by ericjohn on Jan 21, 2006 20:51:56 GMT -5
Hey Bill,
As much as is possible with the bone head of an instructor we have now. When I get my own dojo open, randori, freewrestling and sparring will be part if every workout.
Depending on what tournaments are coming up will depend on the type of sparing. I plan on having a strictly self defense cla*s also and base most of it on Krav Maga, or heck maybe even RMATA. It will have real time scenerios to give folks a chance to be under the pressure of having to defend themselves.
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migo
50+ Posts Member
Posts: 60
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Post by migo on Apr 13, 2006 19:37:47 GMT -5
I would say I do, my training is MMA focused, but we really don't have any solid rules in training aside from don't injure each other so much that you can't train the next day. Even when we're doing "just" grappling, we'll open up with strikes if some really bad sport grappling habits are being practiced.
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Post by atlas1212 on Jun 19, 2006 11:01:29 GMT -5
It's just a cost-benefit sort of thing. I've been in real fights and positional fighting and submissions were all I needed. I didn't need to worry about neck cranks and I think overall leg locks are extremely risky in a real fight. If you are fighting a non-grappler, odds are you'll take him down and control him. Then you can either submit him or strike him. I don't want to try breaking his neck or going for some concession. I want to make him pa*s out or break a limb. For BJJ, they see twisting leg locks and neck cranks as techniques that have value but much less value compared to other more reliable and effective techniques. Right or wrong, that is the justification and I tend to agree with it.
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