|
Post by Vince on Mar 11, 2006 6:52:00 GMT -5
Hey folks, I found this catchwrestling blog online, which is done by Jake Shannon. I thought it was interesting and that some of ya'll might enjoy checking it out. www.scientificwrestling.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 12, 2006 14:53:16 GMT -5
Vince:
While I respect the fact that Jake Shannon has done a lot in the past few years to promote the resurgence of CACC wrestling (and I've been a fan of it since 1963)...nonetheless, I feel compelled to say a few things about his repeated attempts to discredit Tony Cecchine in the eyes of catch enthusiasts. He seems to be on a crusade regarding this matter - and some of Jake's claims have to be challenged.
Now before I give specifics - I want to say that it's quite possible that much of Cecchine's claims about who he learned from and what's he's done in the past (ie.- boxing in Golden Gloves) are not completely true - and in addition - there's certainly enough smoke around concerning his personality quirks and treatment of others to justify the a*sumption that there has to be some fire there as well.
But as MANY people can attest to (including Bll Cogswell)...the fact still remains that Tony's vids (as a totality) do contain much valuable CACC instruction - and they're done in a clear and concise matter.
Now for some of Jake's claims that have to be questioned, specifically the blog referred to on this thread - wherein Jake writes:
"Turned-off by Furey's over-the-top 'pie-in-the-sky' ad copy and outrageous prices, I began to look elsewhere. A cursory internet search turned up Tony Cecchine's name. He somehow had an endorsement from Lou Thesz so I bought his DVD course..."
***INDEED...the great Lou Thesz believed that Tony knew his stuff - and was actually present at one of the sessions wherein Tony taped his groundbreaking vid series THE LOST ART OF HOOKING. I would say that this is an indeed an endorsement.
"I personally knew Cecchine for the better part of a year...I simply asked about his claims about being a Golden Gloves boxing champion, about his lack of a competitive wrestling career, and about his unverified claims that he actually trained with an obscure pro-wrestler/strongman (a wrestler than no legit old-timers that I asked had heard of." (Jake S)
***VERY INTERESTING COMMENT...since Thesz himself on his website forum, when asked about Stanley Radwan (the man Tony claims to have learned catch from)...Lou said that he had heard of Radwan some years earlier and had also heard that Radwan was indeed a "hooker." Clearly a different picture than the one Jake tries to paint.
"Billy Wicks is another. He is a retired sheriff and Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestler (who learned hooks directly from Farmer Burns' student Henry Kohlen) that thinks nothing of Cecchine and has publically stated so. Cecchine once latched onto him for legitimacy. I have a hand written letter from Mr. Wicks saying that he feels that both he and Lou Thesz were 'duped' by 'Super-Hooker' (as he jokingly calls him) Cecchine." (Jake S)
***ARE WE REALLY TO BELIEVE that Lou Thesz, of all people, - one of the greatest CACC wrestlers of all time (and many people will tell you that he WAS the best) - could actually be "duped" by someone claiming to be an expert in catch? Lou Thesz wouldn't know an imposter when he sees him? Lou wrestled some 6,000 professional matches in his long career - and was trained by George Tragos, Ad Santell, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, and Ray Steele...some of the biggest names ever a*sociated with CACC - and Lou wouldn't know a phoney when he saw him?
Not looking to start any controversies here, Vince...but just wanted to put that out there for consideration.
|
|
|
Post by Vince on Mar 12, 2006 15:24:46 GMT -5
Interesting thread victor. There's no problem in discussing things like this, and it is certainly fine if people disagree and discuss different points as you have done. Hopefully Mr Shannon will come on here and discuss this with you and we can all learn something from the interaction.
I would like to remind anyone who later posts on this thread to keep things respectful to all posters. I mention this because I can see the potential for tempers to flare in this one.
|
|
|
Post by BillCogswell on Mar 12, 2006 16:52:51 GMT -5
These issues are all based on opinion and speculation. I personally prefer not to get involved with it and only base my "reactions" to facts not personal opinions of matters that are unprovable either way. Like I've always said LAOH is my favorite tape set and it had a great impact on my game, what the man did or does is his business and it has no bearing on my own life. I look to the future rather than harp on the past so again, it has no bearing on me in this manner.
|
|
|
Post by daileyc on Mar 13, 2006 2:27:23 GMT -5
Hi Group, Regardless of what people think of Tony or Matt, those two are the reason that the name Catch is coming back. Actually it never left but I'll get to that in a second. I know there is a credibility issue with both only because of claims they have made about who trained them. I know I don't care who trained who so long as you perform on the mat. When I wrestle someone I see them, not their trainers. I think the world of marketing has created some of the problem.
I agree if Lou seen Tony and said he has the skills, then Tony has the skills. Think about it. Anyone on this forum who has done any martial art for more than a couple of years is more than capable of gauging someones skill level even if no more than "I do not want to tie up with him".
Now about the field of study known as Catch wrestling. What we call Catch wrestling has been preserved for the last 100 years through our Folkstyle and freestyle wrestling programs governed by USA Wrestling, AAU, and the NCAA. Now I am sure that is a claim that you have not heard. Why? It's not as glamorous as the other claims. If you have the money and resources to research the history of techniques and rule changes throughout the last 100 years you will find nearly every single technique for what we call "Catch Wrestling" right there in the fundamentals of amateur wrestling. The only difference is the "intent".
The double wrist lock, the reverse double wrist lock (top wrist lock), the key lock, the head chancery, every principle of control found on the LAOH tapes...is all right there in amateur wrestling. Further, the stopper toe hold, the strangle, leg locks, heel hooks and all of the other hooks are also found demonstrated in amateur wrestling throughout the years. The difference is that they are taught as "do not do" techniques as opposed to "legitimate" techniques.
From available training resources as far back as 1896 through modern day, you will find true Catch Wrestling in a variety of forms. And if you really want to be good at it, go join a local wrestling club. But if you're looking for a master to bless you on your Catch wrestling journey, you'll never find it. The WMA of wrestling never played by those rules and never will. I think that is where both Tony and Matt went wrong, they tried to apply the eastern martial art idea of a "master" to a field of study that has never had "masters".
But I agree, the LAOH is probably the best series available.
Chad
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 13, 2006 12:01:24 GMT -5
Excellent post, Chad.
|
|
|
Post by winston on Mar 13, 2006 16:07:49 GMT -5
"These issues are all based on opinion and speculation."
Which unfortunately, many seem to believe is the gospel.
|
|
|
Post by jakeshannon on Mar 13, 2006 20:52:19 GMT -5
"Jake's claims have to be challenged.
Now before I give specifics - I want to say that it's quite possible that much of Cecchine's claims about who he learned from and what's he's done in the past (ie.- boxing in Golden Gloves) are not completely true - and in addition - there's certainly enough smoke around concerning his personality quirks and treatment of others to justify the a*sumption that there has to be some fire there as well.
But as MANY people can attest to (including Bll Cogswell)...the fact still remains that Tony's vids (as a totality) do contain much valuable CACC instruction - and they're done in a clear and concise matter."
Wow Victor, this is a welcome change in tone (thank you for not threatening to beat me up this time. Especially, now that I know that your parents named you Victor because you are the Victorious type).
I actually agree with the part where I quoted you 100%. Others will tell you that it is my opinion that LAOH contain some very valuable CACC material (I have said so NUMEROUS times as well as saying I liked Furey's Neck Crank video. I mention this in the blog itself in fact, lol).
The LAOH was good enough (before I really dug into CACC for my books and other projects) for me to become involved in Cecchine's ICWA and been later appointed the head of the West Coast chapter by none other than Cecchine.
I welcome anyone to investigate the issues like I did. PLEASE!!!! I would love to see evidence or proof to answer any issues I raised. That's all I ask (and have been asking for the last few years).
These were the questions I raised years ago:
1) Can anyone verify his Golden Gloves claim? (Made on a videotape) 2) That he beat up the Dudley Boys in a bar fight (he told this story to a group of us during the Chicago meeting) 3) That he trained with Stanley Radwan 4) That Radwan actually knew CACC hooks 5) Can anyone explain the apparent change in his knowledge from the infamous Gotch tape to LAOH? 6) Can anyone explain why Shane Tucker says that never rolled 100% live with either Cecchine of his #1 student Bruce Lee while he was in Chicago to train with Cecchine? 7) Is it possible that Mr. Thesz made a mistake about Cecchine (like Wicks admitted to) or perhaps Mr. Thesz perhaps had some monetary motivation to endorse Cecchine? (this was an idea suggested to me by Mark Fleming, one of Lou's closest friends)
I have more questions but I am still waiting for satisfactory answers to these first. Thanks!
Meanwhile, I am have not waited for answers to move forward with bringing back REAL catch wrestling! I am hoping that everyone (Cecchine and Furey included) will be welcome to enter the King of Catch Wrestling Tournament, should be cool!
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 13, 2006 22:46:05 GMT -5
Won't get into any personal accusations and counter-attacks with Jake...since that has no place here. I will simply keep to the issues I brought up earlier:
1) Lou Thesz actually attended a vid session of LAOH and called Tony Cecchine a legit hooker on his website forum.That's quite an endorsement.
2) I find it VERY difficult to believe that Lou Thesz - arguably the biggest, and longest-running amba*sador for CACC worldwide for 7 decades - and widely recognized as one of the very best (arguably the best) catch wrestler ever...would...at the age of what?....79 ?....80 ? turn his back on his reputation for credibility and be part of a scam with two guys who were phonies...for money ? !
At his age - after all the money he made for all those years...he needed to do something like that?
Or...as Jake says...maybe he "just made a mistake" about Cecchine's skills?
Again...we are talking about Lou Thesz...this is like a Babe Ruth of baseball...a Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano of boxing...a Joe Montana of football.
No, I don't think it's likely AT ALL that he made a mistake. Tony Cecchine had real CACC skills and Thesz recognized them as such.
And if Thesz says that he heard that Radwan was in fact a legit hooker...why should we doubt him?
Because he now (at the age of 80) wants to make a few dollars at seminars with two imposters?
Again...I see this as HIGHLY unlikely.
|
|
|
Post by BillCogswell on Mar 14, 2006 7:16:58 GMT -5
"That he beat up the Dudley Boys in a bar fight"
LOLOL
|
|
|
Post by BillCogswell on Mar 14, 2006 7:23:00 GMT -5
"And if Thesz says that he heard that Radwan was in fact a legit hooker...why should we doubt him?" I'd be curious to know who he heard that from just for the record as it would help solve that issue (for those who actually care about that issue that is). Meaning if he heard that from Cecchine I think it would negate the point but if he heard it from someone else in the past, that solves that one. Here's the actual quote from Lou on Radwan: "Hi, I never met him, but have heard he was a hooker. I have heard the name of course. Lou"
|
|
|
Post by winston on Mar 14, 2006 14:34:42 GMT -5
1) Can anyone verify his Golden Gloves claim? (Made on a videotape) My understanding is that he was about 14 or 15 and fighting under a friends' name and not in Chicago. As far as I know he never claimed to be a champion of anything. Just that he boxed. 2) That he beat up the Dudley Boys in a bar fight (he told this story to a group of us during the Chicago meeting) And this is meaningful because? I beat up a kid name Blaine Davis in Junior High, do I have to prove it to have credibility? I also used Zujitisu to subdue two guys that grabbed me in a bar. It threw one over a table and used a finger lock on the other and made him escort me outside. Do I have to prove that to? Does anyone document their life 24/7? 3) That he trained with Stanley Radwan Well, I guess that we just have to believe him on that. There is no way to prove or disprove it. 4) That Radwan actually knew CACC hooks For crying out loud, how many people live and die with little record of their lives or accomplishment being recorded. At least there is some record of Radwan. 5) Can anyone explain the apparent change in his knowledge from the infamous Gotch tape to LAOH? Yes. When the tape was made Tony was in bad shape. He was wearing a back brace of some sort. He was simply trying to get through as much material as he could, as fast as he could. The fact that some of it looks like some other tapes is unsurprising. Tony has never denied that he has continued to learn and evolve his art. He learned new stuff from Thesz. He has certainly seen much of the material out there, whether on tape or in books. For that tape he was regurgitating as much as possible of what he had seen/knew. If some of it came out in the same order that he had seen it in, from whatever source, it that so surprising? If he looked "off" phyisically, it was because he "off" physically when he filmed it. Simply watch the original Seminar Tape filmed at Chitwood's about three months later. Could he have mastered the art in three months watching Japanese language tapes? I asked Jerron Smith about the tape recently. He has a copy and he says that there is nothing on it that is upsetting or surpising to him. And he discovered and trained with Tony before that tape. So obviously Tony was Tony before that tape was made. 6) Can anyone explain why Shane Tucker says that never rolled 100% live with either Cecchine of his #1 student Bruce Lee while he was in Chicago to train with Cecchine? Don't know and don't care. How does this advance the discussion? Does it matter? 7) Is it possible that Mr. Thesz made a mistake about Cecchine (like Wicks admitted to) or perhaps Mr. Thesz perhaps had some monetary motivation to endorse Cecchine? (this was an idea suggested to me by Mark Fleming, one of Lou's closest friends). "Suggested" does make it fact. It is not like Tony had any money to buy or bribe an endorsement out of Lou. Remember Tony never charged for lessons, only seminars. And there were not a lot of seminars. Lou spent plenty of time around Tony including when LAOH was being filmed. Just watch the tapes again. Tony filmed all of that stuff in one take. No second guessing, just spitting out his knowledge in an articulate accurate way. Lou could obviuosly see that Tony knew his stuff cold. In all the hours I spent with Tony, he has never once failed to have an answer to a question or a solution to a problem vis a vis CACC. He knows his art cold. One more thing. Tony calls his art CACC. Is his definition the same as everyone else's or the accepted historical definition? Probably not. But very close. It is his expression of his knowledge. It is simply his way of wrestling, his style, his CACC. Boxers have different styles and it is all still called Boxing, so why not CACC Wrestlers having different styles and still calling it CACC. I think that that would go a long way to stopping all of the rancor.
|
|
|
Post by daileyc on Mar 15, 2006 15:29:09 GMT -5
Winston hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph. Catch Wrestling is a field of study, not a specific style. That is just one aspect that seperates Catch from other forms of grappling. If you see two wrestlers playing the game the exact same way, you have one wrestler and one carbon copy. Each Catch wrestler is free (or should be) to add and delete from his collection of usable techniques when he sees fit based on his personal preference and do so without the approval or disapproval of a teacher or anyone else. What Tony presents is indeed "his" style of CACC wrestling. Keep in mind that just like boxing, CACC wrestlers draw from the same pool of common techniques, they just find different ways to apply and chain them. That is where most martial artist end up any way, its just that CACC chooses to apply the concept much sooner.
Now on to Jake. While I certainly do not want to get in the middle of any battles, my hats off to Jake. He has done just as much if not more for CACC wrestling than anyone else. If you get the chance to buy the Scientific Wrestling books, do it. Just remember, the meat is in the text, not the pictures.
Chad
|
|
|
Post by tcjitsu on Mar 15, 2006 21:27:02 GMT -5
I have heard much talk about Tony not rolling live and I read it again in this thread.
I have rolled live with both Tony and Bruce Lee. We all went hard, no excuses and no holding back. It was a learning experience for ALL three of us. This was 10 years ago, perhaps now Tony doesnt roll live due to injuries, I dont know. From my own personal experience, these guys did roll live.
Also Winston states:
5) Can anyone explain the apparent change in his knowledge from the infamous Gotch tape to LAOH? "Yes. When the tape was made Tony was in bad shape. He was wearing a back brace of some sort. He was simply trying to get through as much material as he could, as fast as he could. The fact that some of it looks like some other tapes is unsurprising. Tony has never denied that he has continued to learn and evolve his art. He learned new stuff from Thesz. He has certainly seen much of the material out there, whether on tape or in books. For that tape he was regurgitating as much as possible of what he had seen/knew. If some of it came out in the same order that he had seen it in, from whatever source, it that so surprising? If he looked "off" phyisically, it was because he "off" physically when he filmed it. Simply watch the original Seminar Tape filmed at Chitwood's about three months later. Could he have mastered the art in three months watching Japanese language tapes? I asked Jerron Smith about the tape recently. He has a copy and he says that there is nothing on it that is upsetting or surpising to him. And he discovered and trained with Tony before that tape. So obviously Tony was Tony before that tape was made. "
I am afraid that your timeline is all jacked up. I have known Tony longer than anyone here or anyone talked about. To the best of my knowledge, he was healthy when he made that video and it was made well before he came to my academy. And Jerron trained with Tony years after that tape was made.
It is amazing to me that this nuts gets puked up all over again in several year cycles. I say this knowing of Tony the longest and convincing him to come forward with his knowledge. He taught his first seminar at my academy after I had already been to Chicago to train with him. So here are the facts as I know them:
On Tony's Character 1) Tony treats people like sh!t. 2) Tony has a God complex 3) Tony stabs friends in the back to make himself look better. This list is VERY long and my name is on it. 4) Tony hides behind fake names on the internet and behind real life friends to push his agendas (see 1-3).
On Tony's Credentials and Ability His credentials are questionable, however he has been endorsed. He may well have learned his grappling from videos and magazines, who knows? I can tell you that he is a very methodical teacher, so irregardless of where he recieved his knowledge, he imparts it well. I am speaking of my experience with learning leg locks with him. He may be a fraudulent Hooker, but as a no-gi grappler, when I rolled with him, he was no joke. Of all the "no-gi" experts that I have been on the mat with, in disciplines from BJJ to Wrestling, he does not rank at the top but he isnt far from it either. Pretty amazing skill from a "fraud". I won't compare grapplers, but there are a few famous champions that would pay hell with Tony 10 years ago.
You can be a self pronouced catch master, self promoted grand master, or a lifetime white belt. But you know what? That title and your aility is proven or disproven once you are on the mat. And when you are old and injury plaqued, your ability is proven through your students. The problem occurs when you start claiming invinciblity like the Gracies did, and like those in question have. Like a great football season, the better team wins any given Sunday. As an example, you would not believe the big names I have beaten in training, I am sure you would call me a liar, so dont ask. On the other hand if I produced my list of losses in training it would be embara*sing. The point? It's training. People just need to look inward at themselves, better who they are and shut up and train.
And to those lurking, I don't hide behind a screen name,
Shawn Chitwood
|
|
|
Post by BillCogswell on Mar 15, 2006 22:24:10 GMT -5
"People just need to look inward at themselves, better who they are and shut up and train."
Great post Shawn!!!
|
|
getgoin
New Member
RMATA a*sociate
Idiot Savant
Posts: 18
|
Post by getgoin on Mar 15, 2006 23:36:47 GMT -5
Nice thread
|
|
|
Post by winston on Mar 16, 2006 11:16:06 GMT -5
Shawn,
My timeline is based on what I have been told by Tony and Jerron firsthand, as well as the circumstances of the infamous Gotch tape.
It has been a while, so memories get fuzzy I suppose.
Next time I speak to them I will try to confirm what you have said. The reality is that it really makes no difference, but since there is so much rancor on this subject, a definitive timeline can't hurt.
I have never personally run afoul of the "evil" Tony, but I have stated many times that I can see how he could be hard to get along with for some people.
I am glad that you came here and can confirm that he is the real deal as far as ability goes. I certainly have learned a lot from him. A lot that works. He happens to be a really good teacher. If everyone can get past all the other issues, he is clearly a valubale a*set to the CACC community.
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 16, 2006 12:48:32 GMT -5
This might possibly turn out to be the best thread/discussion ever done to date about Tony Cecchine. The guy clearly has some big personal issues - but as Shawn said - "Pretty amazing skill from a 'fraud'. I won't compare grapplers, but there are a few famous champions that would pay hell with Tony 10 years ago."
We may never really know where he learned his stuff (aside fom what he obviously learned from Lou Thesz around the time of the making of the LAOH tapes)...but as to Stanley Radwan...we may never know anything definitive.
What I do know for sure, however, is that his vids as a totality - and his ability to teach in a clear, concise, and thorough manner - are pretty high quality.
Love him or hate him - Tony has made a big contribution to the re-emergence of CACC wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by brucelee on Mar 16, 2006 19:31:15 GMT -5
Hi Shawn, how are you?
I'm not Tony's attorney and I'm not here to defend him. I will share my experience and my opinions, and you don't have to like it. Many people have been through the tool and die shop, gotten a good whopping, cried, quit and also learned a great deal. Many of these people praised in private and begged to learn more, and down the road called him a fruad. Most of them were not beginners in terms of time put in, i.e. 2+ years is a long time, I would hope they can recognize a fraud when they see one.
"Can anyone explain the apparent change in his knowledge from the infamous Gotch tape to LAOH?"
Tony started to teach more regularly after we met. The Gotch tape was made after he was sick and rusty. In fact, when I met him in 1996 he was only teaching 2 people on the side, we had no places to work out and worked out in public parks many times. Please don't tell me he was never sick. I have visited him in the hospital on a number of occasions since I have known him. Technique wise, what he showed me was/is exactly what he showed everyone else in person and on tapes.
"Can anyone explain why Shane Tucker says that never rolled 100% live with either Cecchine of his #1 student Bruce Lee while he was in Chicago to train with Cecchine?"
I am Bruce H Lee and I rolled with Shane Tucker, as did Martin, Brian, Matt and whoever else came through during that period. I have seen Tony roll with Shane with my owns eyes as have other people. I don't know what Shane is talking about. I'd be the first to say that Shane got very good at the end and I had a very difficult time with him.
"Is it possible that Mr. Thesz made a mistake about Cecchine (like Wicks admitted to) or perhaps Mr. Thesz perhaps had some monetary motivation to endorse Cecchine? (this was an idea suggested to me by Mark Fleming, one of Lou's closest friends)"
Anything is possible, a monkey can fly out of my a*s, however, that's not the case here, the monkey included. Tony spoke with Lou several times on the phone and asked Lou to be present at the taping of LAOH. Lou's travel was paid by Paul Viele. He signed the consent forms for the extra tape that was only released for a short period of time for reasons only Paul Viele knows. Lou chose to be a part of the whole thing because, he told me, that he loves wrestling and seeing Tony was like seeing ghosts. I spent time with Lou and he was a great man and had great knowledge of wrestling and nothing but great things to say about Tony. I never heard nor read the negative comments Billy Wicks made publically. I spent a weekend with him and he was in Chicago, Ryan Stout was also in town training that weekend (and several weeks prior). Billy had nothing but praise for all he saw. Why he said anything other than that later I have no idea nor do I care.
I have met many people in my time wrestling and grappling (1984-1996 jr high/high school/collegiate wrestling and coach and 1996-2003 CACC), so I feel like I know about wrestling a little bit. Tony doesn't come from an amateur background and I have stated that publically. There's no way he can hang when it comes to takedowns, that's why I taught all the takedowns after we met. However, he will put a world of pain on you, regardless of position. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to submissions. I met him in 1996 when I first moved to Chicago and everything he showed me on day one was/is what he showed to everyone else in person and on tape.
People say he's not a nice guy, OK, my personal experience has been positive. He doesn't ask anything of me and I don't ask anything of him. We are friends who don't hang out a lot because Tony likes dive joints and I like Lincoln Park. He has never stab me in the back and has treated me with nothing but respect. He is not a business man and he says what is on his mind, perhaps that's why he never succeed as a franchise and he doesn't make a living as an instructor. How many people know that he never charged people who come into town to train, puts them up at his apartment for free and even fed them, sometimes for weeks at a time??
Shawn hit the nail on the head, if Tony is a fraud, he is the best I have ever seen. His style is unique, his submission techniques are scientific, not sloppy nor loose, and he has amazing knowledge in physical training. I have seen him box and many others have seen him as well, I'm not an expert on boxing but my friend Carlos Ortiz who fought GG tells me Tony knows what he's talking about and backs it up when they boxed.
I have a few questions of my own. I never competed in submission wrestling but I have rolled live with many many people who came to Chicago, and for whatever reason people don't bang on me on-line, even when they are publically denouncing Tony. Why? Many people have rolled with Brian, Martin and Javier and don't bad mouth them, why?
|
|
|
Post by jakeshannon on Mar 16, 2006 21:52:14 GMT -5
Chad, thanks man! Just saw your website the other day, looks very compelling.
Glad to see you speaking here Shawn!
You as well Bruce. Except when you called me a name on mma.tv a few years back, you have always been nice to me, I remember that. By the way, I still consider Brian a friend even though we haven't talked in the last 2 years (mainly because of all the political BS). I am very used to people talking a bunch of crap until they figure things out for themselves and then apologizing to me later... Hopefully now, after you've seen some of the things I (and many many others) accomplished, you'll know that my pa*sion for Catch AND honesty is very sincere.
Anyway, directly to your post: If someone makes claims and does not prove them, then others are d**ned right in being skeptical until proven otherwise. If I remember correctly, you are a recruiter. Cursory background checks are rudimentary before you hire someone, no? What would an employer do if they found that someone made up parts of their resume and the other portions are conveniently unverifiable? They would be laughed out of human resources.
"I have a few questions of my own. I never competed in submission wrestling but I have rolled live with many many people who came to Chicago, and for whatever reason people don't bang on me on-line, even when they are publically denouncing Tony. Why? Many people have rolled with Brian, Martin and Javier and don't bad mouth them, why?"
Simple because you weren't: caught in lies, bad mouthing people, you aren't interesting in creating a cult of personality around yourself, you weren't hiding behind multiple screen names, or making outrageous claims that cannot be backed up with evidence, or claiming the lone master of the most advanced martial art on earth without proof!
You have experience as a collegiate wrestler, I respect this very much. I am curious however if anyone else has had the advantage of grappling with a collegiate wrestler that does not know submission while you do. It is easy to hook people that don't know any better. I am not saying this to diminish your endorsement of Cecchine as a submission "expert", I am just trying to place your endorsement in the proper context.
Is Tony a tough guy? I don't know but probably. I am not arguing that at all. Is Tony a good teacher? Yes, he is very smart and explains concepts very well. Hell LAOH was the reason I became so centrally involved with his ICWA. Now does Tony lie, make up things to boost his ego? Yes. Does he treat people atrociously? Yes.
I see little difference between what Tony was doing and what Mark Hatmaker is doing now except that (and this is CRUCIAL) Mark is a decent, honest human being (and much more prolific)
Shane Tucker posted on MMA.TV about his personal experiences and many, many, many other have too. THAT is why Tony has been denounced.
You and all the Chicago guys are encouraged to enter the King of Catch Wrestling Tournament to silence all the critics.
|
|
|
Post by tcjitsu on Mar 16, 2006 23:14:35 GMT -5
Bruce,
Good to see you here to set some record straight.
I am also glad to see you are not on the long list of cronies who are now former cronies. It is good that you have not been badmouthed or screwed by him. What I know of you, your a good man, and a jolly spirit. I don't know you very well but I enjoyed rolling with you in Chicago. Thank you for that. (For everyone else, Bruce is no joke grappling up or down.)
Everyone,
Make no MISTAKE about it, I am NOT here to defend Tony as a man or his character. I am NOT here to defend his credentials either. But when people say he can't be or is not good on the ground because they have not rolled with him or seen him roll in competitions, it's bull. He has skill on the ground and it's not novice either.
I did nothing but endorse, encurage, and support Tony. I like to think I had much to do with the start of his more commercial career. Not one time did a bad thing about him come out of my mouth.... ever. Even after we didnt keep in real close contact. What did I get? I got sh!t on, lied to, bad-mouthed, hara*sed, bullied, and threatened. All of it was unprevoked.
Tony used to be like a brother to me, now he still is like a brother .... a dead brother.
Shawn
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 16, 2006 23:33:46 GMT -5
What I'm about to say refers to Jake Shannon - since he's the one who never ceases to try and badmouth Tony Cecchine at every opportunity.
Whatever problems (or legitimate grievances) Shawn Chitwood has had with Tony is his business...but at least the man has not publically tried to shout about it from the rooftops. I can respect that a great deal - and especially respect the fact that he still is HONEST enough about the whole business to tell it like it is about Tony's real catch wrestling (hooking) skills.
But Jake's attitude about Tony is a whole other story.
For Jake, this whole thing sounds, quite frankly...like some sort of personal vandetta...from someone who clearly doesn't like Tony - for whatever his reasons....and then decided (as the student)...that he was now going to dig into the instructor's past with a fine tooth investigative comb...so as to be able to say: "GOTCHA".
Look carefully at Jake's latest post: on the one hand kudos is being given to guys who have trained with Tony the longest (well where did they get the knowledge and skill to earn that respect?...Answer: from training with Tony)...
but Tony is being called a FRAUD....due to his personality quirks and bad manners (of which there has to be some truth and fire - since so much smoke has come from a bunch of different ex-students and friends)...
Okay.
But acting like a jerk does not mean that one's knowledge and skill is fraudulent.
It just means that one may have acted like a jerk.
Period.
|
|
|
Post by brucelee on Mar 17, 2006 10:19:34 GMT -5
Cut the crap Jake. I don't like you and you don't like me. This (wrestling) is no longer an active part of of my life but it will always be who I am. I have the dedication and skills to be successful in everything I do, recruiting included, don't tell me how to do my job.
|
|
|
Post by Vince on Mar 17, 2006 12:20:40 GMT -5
I appreciate everyone posting in a relatively cool headed manner. Regardless of any name calling or personal attacks that have happened on any other sites in the past, that will not be allowed here.
If this discussion is to continue all parties must keep it fact based, logical, and with due respect to all involved.
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by winston on Mar 17, 2006 18:05:22 GMT -5
So let's see what we have.
Plenty of "evidence" of the reality of Tony's skill from those who should know.
Plenty of "speculation" from one person about his personal history.
Plenty of testimony that Tony is a difficult person to deal with at times, at least for some people.
And the grappling world thinking that CACC is a bunch of baloney because of all in the internal sniping.
Jake,if you want to make the biggest contribution you have ever made to CACC, then bury the hatchet on this.
You now have first hand testimony from guys that have been around Tony since the very beginning. What Shawn has done is something that I applaud. He is a bigger man that many.
Your "background check" allusion is nonsencsical, because you are not hiring Tony and putting him a fiduciary position. In MA there is always a little exaggeration.
If Rickson asked you to train for free would you turn him down because he claimed to be 400-0. When Helio is on tape saying that it is more like 8-0. But every Gracie BB says that he is the best.
Come on, enough already. Can't we just hug it out?
BTW I am Eric Kugler in NYC, for those that did not already know.
|
|
socal
New Member
Posts: 1
|
Post by socal on Mar 17, 2006 18:13:47 GMT -5
This will probably be censored, but despite his claims to be altruistic all the mud slinging done by Jake is money motivated. He puts out catch wrestling rip-off products, and since he knows he won't get Tony's endorsement, he needs to tear him down in order to silence his criticism. Besides, the controversy helps sales. All the same he maintains a facade in order to promote his products. LOL @ throwing more mud at Tony and then shilling a tournament at the same time.
And if we are on subject of personalities, then there is plenty of dirt on Jake, his (EDITED BY MODERATOR), etc.
|
|
|
Post by Vince on Mar 17, 2006 18:58:52 GMT -5
Socal (from Chicago actually, as a trace of your IP shows),
Mud slinging (or slander) is one thing, and that won't be tolerated here. A logical discussion in which different parties disagree is certainly allowed. Lets keep it respectful and discuss the facts in a respectful manner. Otherwise censorship (or banishment) will certainly follow.
Let me take this time to remind all RMATA forum members about the type of members we want on this forum. No other type will be allowed to contribute here. If this is not you please go elsewhere;
"This forum is for our members, friends, and anyone interested in the martial arts to communicate and benefit from our collective knowledge. Hopefully you will find this place to be a breath of fresh air compared to other online martial arts communities; since we are comprised of friendly, mature people who are serious about realistic martial arts training and discovering what really works in all sorts of combat situations. Feel free to contribute with your questions, answers, thoughts, comments, and discussions while you’re here."
:
|
|
|
Post by jakeshannon on Mar 17, 2006 19:39:42 GMT -5
Unless you are a communist (which is your totally your perogative), last I heard being motivated by money is a good thing, as long as you are honest. I am certainly not an altruist by any means although I do share as much as possible with everyone involved with my projects.
I honestly don't see anywhere that I have done anything other than ask simple questions. I feel it is outrageously unfair to attack me (as has been done in the past, and is called an ad hominem fallacy in argumentation) rather than to address my questions directly.
So far the only one to attempt to provide a couterpoint has been Eric Kugler. While his explanations leave me largely unconvinced I do applaud his effort to maintain the spirit of the debate as Vince requested it be, "respectful". I also applaud people here openly discussing the issue and not hiding behind screen names.
To the first point, I have a videotape of a seminar where Matt Furey loudly and clearly introduces Tony Cecchine as a Golden Gloves Champion to everyone in the room and Tony makes absolutley no attempt to correct him. My original question on mma.tv a few years ago was if anyone could verify the claim that Cecchine was indeed a Golden Gloves boxing champion and the conclusive answer seems to be "no".
To the second point, if someone claiming to be a fighting coach makes outrageous claims about fights they have won, then they should be able to prove said claims. I don't think this is out of line, is it?
To the third point that he trained with Stanley Radwan, why shouldn't I be skeptical about Cecchine's claims given his questionable character traits? If it is unprovable, then there should be no problem with me saying that his claim is unverifiable.
To your rebuttal to my fourth point that it is unverified that Radwan actually knew CACC hooks, I think it is important to those who actually care about the history of the sport. While you may not care about the integrity of catch history, I sincerely do. I don't question whether he exists, I question if he knew hook wrestling.
Shawn addressed your rebuttal to the question about Cecchine's performance on the Gotch tape so I won't repeat it.
To your rebuttal to my sixth point, Shane Tucker's testimony does advance the discussion since he trained in Chicago for longer than most, hence his experiences and opinion on this matter carry more weight than most.
The seventh point about Thesz's endorsement was troubling and wasn't congruent with the mountain of other evidence (the other 6 point raised here) I had found but when I talked to Billy Wicks, Matt Furey and Mark Fleming indepently about things, this became a non-issue.
You say Cecchine is a valuable a*set to the CACC community. He certainly has done some good things and some not so good things. The same thing can be said of Furey. I have tried to present my take as to the good and bad that they present to the CACC community, go read my posts you can see it has always been that way. People seldom ask me what I think Furey/Cecchine's redeeming contribution are but people often focus on what I don't like.
I have simply presented information, people can (and have) make their own decision about that information. I have done my best to give people access to the original catch books, DVDs, and teachers and I have helped out a number of the real legends while doing so. If that is wrong, I don't want to be right.
|
|
|
Post by jakeshannon on Mar 17, 2006 19:52:49 GMT -5
Thanks Vince for the good moderating. Be careful of hackers now. By the way, I am an open book.
Regarding Mr Socal Chicago, my background is squeaky clean and in fact, I just pa*sed the rigorous LAPD background check.
Slander is a weapon of the weak minded, if people talk crap about me just ask for proof of their claims, lol.
Liars fight a losing battle against reality. Facts and truth are always there for those that seek it!
>;^)~
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 17, 2006 20:29:29 GMT -5
"Slander is a weapon of the weak minded, if people talk crap...just ask for proof of their claims, lol." (JakeS)
***GOD...I find those words from Jake so revealing and ironic.
Has Jake "proved" that Lou Thesz's endorsement of Tony was simply "money-oriented"? No.
(But how ironic that this is the motivation that Jake attributes to someone else).
Or that Thesz was duped by Tony? NO.
Has Jake "proven" that Stanley Radwan never taught Tony Cecchine? NO.
That Radwan knew no hooks? NO.
That Shane Tucker never rolled live with Tony or Bruce? NO.
That Tony's knowledge and skill are fraudulent? NO.
You're right, Jake...Time to stop the slander. And get on with your life.
|
|