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Post by ArmyOfOne on Sept 19, 2005 3:08:01 GMT -5
Recently i've been thinking of tons of ways to cover a persons mouth/nose as a smother submission. I'm wondering why we never see this. I'm sure that in some circles it's not considered "cool" but seriously, i wouldn't hesitate one moment to pull it off in a competition.
I would imagine that from mount, back mount, and even when you are in your guard there would be ways to pull it off. Anybody got any info. on this. Any situations that you feel it would work best? Any special technique or insight into this.
From the back you could come up with lots of ways to cover him up.
From the front i think a modified version of the front x-choke would work best, almost like you are doing an arm triangle, but without the arm, and then put your free hand over his face instead of behind your own head (as in an arm triangle)
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Post by Vince on Sept 22, 2005 3:13:54 GMT -5
Being a big guy it is pretty easy for me to get a smother against most people, but I feel it's sort of cheap and gross if done with the chest/ body so I really don't do it. Also, I'd hate to get used to something like that in training and then use it for real and get bitten.
Keep us posted on your progress with it.
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Sept 22, 2005 14:41:02 GMT -5
After thinking about it for a bit. I think I'm going to start working on these types of mouth and nose covering kind of chokes. If it's legal i'm not going to worry if it's cheap or not. As i started thinking about it I can remember two occa*sions that i've seen smother types of chokes. Although these were both the version where you are in the mount and them you put one arm underneath the guys neck and grab your other elbow crease then place the free hand on the top of the guys head to stabilize then you put your chest in the guys face. These types of chokes are made VERY effective and lethal by wearing a T shirt (one of the only good reasons to wear a t shirt that i can think of as far as submissions go). That is b/c the t shirt will be kind of sucked up into the guys nose when you are on him. Kind of providing an air tight seal.
But two examples i can think of where this kind of choke was used was in the 2003 ADCC championships where Pe De Pano submitted Marcelo Garcia. Pe de Pano was having a hard time controlling garcia until he got him in this position and put his chest on his face. it was a good controlling tactic that led to a sub. Also, in the Pankration championships in Ca. in 2004, i saw the guy that won the LHW division perform this move on one of his opponents. It worked very well....sometimes it's a "slow choke" but you are in solid position and it's easy to hold and hard to be rolled from this point. Note that in both of the above examples the guys were wearing T shirts and had no problem controlling opponents during these slow chokes.
i have never seen a mouth/nose cover done, but i don't think it's b/c it doesn't work, i think it's more b/c people feel embarra*sed to do it and they think it's cheap. I think this could be a VERY fast choke/tap if you get it down. And it could be done from lot's of positions.
But remember....At one time leg locks were considered very cheap subs. And in some circles they still are. I think as sub grappling advances people will be looking for that competitive edge and will try to get it in any way possible within the rules.
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Sept 22, 2005 19:32:04 GMT -5
and by the way...just to add a little to my last post. As people become more aware of RNC and how to defend, we need to have many more options. Right now people still back mount opponents and always go straight for RNC, sometimes without being proficient in any other subs from the back, or just out of plain habit. Everybody knows RNC is coming and some people (ie, Dean Lister) are virtually impossible to choke with RNC. So as defense techniques improve across the board i think we need to start looking at other good subs from the back mount (ie, hand over mouth/nose, face locks, neck cranks, arm bars, triangle arm bars from back mount, forearm "short" chokes, etc.
Because, if you keep trying long enough to get an RNC that's "not there" your opponent will escape....it's only a matter of time usually.
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Post by jcross on Oct 9, 2005 12:13:10 GMT -5
One of these types of chokes was used, I think, in Pride 10 by Ricco Rodriguez. He covered Giant Ochiai mouth and nose with his chest until he tapped. It seemed effective.
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Oct 9, 2005 15:12:16 GMT -5
I would like to know what position they were in when Ricco used that submission. A common position for the "smother choke" as i described above in the 3rd post on this thread. I've seen it used a couple of times in competition. Was this the one you're referring to?
What i'm talking about is actually using your hand (s) to pinch off and cover his breathing pa*sages. There has to be a good way to do this that somebody has been taught before..
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Post by fogster on Oct 10, 2005 5:52:47 GMT -5
Isn't it illegal to use the hand to cover the nose and mouth ?
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Post by GrapplersGuildKs on Mar 5, 2006 11:51:47 GMT -5
I was grappling with a real big sweaty guy who had a tank top on. To make a long story short, his sweaty hairy arm pit suctioned to my mouth and nose and I was very happy to tap out. Oh, the joys of training. (Thats why I insist on a clean Jujitsu GI in cla*s Be Safe JWB
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Post by Vince on Mar 8, 2006 19:39:38 GMT -5
That is just horrible JWB. Yuck!!
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migo
50+ Posts Member
Posts: 60
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Post by migo on Apr 13, 2006 19:39:54 GMT -5
I think they have the same use as omoplatas, great for setups and transitions, but unlikely to actually finish the fight. That's how it turns out when we use them in training anyway.
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Post by atlas1212 on Jun 19, 2006 10:47:54 GMT -5
It's not legal in BJJ competition. I remember when guys like BJ Penn and Ralph Gracie students were doing it, not for a submission but for setups. No one does it anymore because A: You won't get a submission and B: It's illegal in tournament competition.
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migo
50+ Posts Member
Posts: 60
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Post by migo on Aug 10, 2006 18:06:27 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about it being illegal, you can find ways to get around it.
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