|
Post by BillCogswell on Mar 17, 2006 20:50:37 GMT -5
Denise Richards says enough already...
|
|
|
Post by jakeshannon on Mar 17, 2006 21:29:11 GMT -5
Victor,
I have said explicitly elsewhere that my theory about Thesz's endorsement is circumstantial, it is a speculation of mine based upon testimony from 3 separate parties.
Despite what you may think, I am not out to prove Cecchine is a fraud. I am simply asking for proof of his claims that he has made or that have been made about him. It really is as simple as that. Remember, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. This is basic reasoning (logic 101). I have not received any proof to the claims addressed in my blog.
Your appeals to emotionalism and lack of compelling evidence aren't shedding any light on the subject. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you try to reason with unreasonable people. Until people address the issues specifically I will not respond any further.
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 17, 2006 21:40:00 GMT -5
Declaring victory and going home, are you... LOL. As I said earlier: I think this might turn out to be the best thread/discussion ever about Tony Cecchine. And that couldn't happen without also exposing some of your motives and tactics, Jake. [Here's another example of your duplicity: "Despite what you may think, I am not out to prove Cecchine is a fraud"...(JakeS)...] Thanks for the opportunity to have set some things straight. -Victor
|
|
|
Post by jakeshannon on Mar 17, 2006 22:02:27 GMT -5
Victor, I was addressing you specifically. My motivation isn't about winning or losing, it is about the truth, evidence and reality. (EDITED BY MODERATOR)
|
|
|
Post by victorparlati on Mar 17, 2006 22:09:34 GMT -5
Great thread, Vince.
And very well moderated. I'm impressed.
|
|
|
Post by winston on Mar 18, 2006 1:16:05 GMT -5
Question: "Can anyone verify his Golden Gloves claim? (Made on a videotape)"
Answer: "To the first point, I have a videotape of a seminar where Matt Furey loudly and clearly introduces Tony Cecchine as a Golden Gloves Champion to everyone in the room."
You answered your own question. LOL This is the first time I am hearing this and it makes perfect sense. FUREY SAID IT. End of story. The fact that Tony did not say anything is meaningless. It was a seminar, not a deposition. Do you hate Mario sperry for him not correcting his promoter when he was introduced as 700-0???
"He may be a fraudulent Hooker, but as a no-gi grappler, when I rolled with him, he was no joke. Of all the "no-gi" experts that I have been on the mat with, in disciplines from BJJ to Wrestling, he does not rank at the top but he isnt far from it either. Pretty amazing skill from a "fraud". I won't compare grapplers, but there are a few famous champions that would pay hell with Tony 10 years ago."
Jake, Shawn is a BB in BJJ. Do you need better testimony. His experinece with Tony predates the infamous Gotch tape. Tony told me himself that he was injured and strapped up. Bruce Lee is corroborating this:
"Tony started to teach more regularly after we met. The Gotch tape was made after he was sick and rusty."
What else is there? 2+2=4 Tony was Tony was before the tape. and the tape is what I explanified it to be. ;-)
I think that you should take a deep breath and think it through. There was no sinister conspiracy going on. Just the usual telephone game of life. Stuff gets said and stories get repeated and before long nobody knows the truth.
|
|
|
Post by daileyc on Mar 18, 2006 2:18:19 GMT -5
Hi guys, Let me start with something about myself. One of the things I fought with for years before someone finally conviced me to open up a wrestling club was linage. I am a self-taught wrestler (that may not be glamorous but I am what I am). Now I have rolled with a lot of people over the years and learned something from each of them. But before I ever stepped onto the mat with them I had already taught myself how to wrestle and specifically submission wrestling. For years I dreaded that one question, "Who did you learn from". I never had a "teacher" that I could call my own. Funny thing was, no ever asked. Last year, I had a sit down conversation with someone that obviously led to my club opening up. Since then I have had numerous requests for my "linage" since I claim to play by Catch rules. My response has been the same to each of them..."I wish I could impress you with some great linage that I could have pride in, or some great title, but I can't. Therefore I will not hide behind a linage either, and you will never get deceit from me. I am a self-taught "garage roller" that sucked until I found submission". Every single person has responded with so many good words, the negative that I will ever receive will be viewed as nothing more than just a digruntled person. I was blown away, what I feared most has not been nor will ever be an issue.
Now...with Tony. Character is a big deal in my book. Without it, who knows what you really have. However, if Tony has some questionable claims, that is not all that much different from the Catch wrestling of the past. There has always been an aura of deceit in Catch, at least the professional side of it. I mean wrestlers would wrestle under multiple names, fix matches and the works.
If Tony has fradulent claims and he came forward and stated so, I don't there are too many people in the Catch field that would not welcome the real Tony and say, the past is the past and we could care less. In fact, I would bet that most would rally behind, and support him. He obviously has both coaching and rolling skills and no one can take that from him. I just hate to see someone with talent loose as Tony has and unless the claims are either proven with solidity or in humbleness recanted I really don't see it changing. I would hope that someone close to Tony is on this forum and sits down with him and says hey, lets get back to what we love...catch and forget the B.S. If not like I said his future will never change in the catch field
Now for Socal....Jakes material is far from rip off material. I have not found 1 product that is not a gold mine both books and DVD. So that was just out a loose ball batted down.
Vince, you and your moderators are awesome for keeping this forum clean.
Take care Chad
|
|
|
Post by tcjitsu on Mar 19, 2006 1:24:55 GMT -5
From Winstons Post
"He may be a fraudulent Hooker, but as a no-gi grappler, when I rolled with him, he was no joke. Of all the "no-gi" experts that I have been on the mat with, in disciplines from BJJ to Wrestling, he does not rank at the top but he isnt far from it either. Pretty amazing skill from a "fraud". I won't compare grapplers, but there are a few famous champions that would pay hell with Tony 10 years ago."
Jake, Shawn is a BB in BJJ. Do you need better testimony. His experinece with Tony predates the infamous Gotch tape.Winston, I am not a BJJ BB, I am a long time brown belt Once again, I do not want people to take my quote out of context. Tony is strong, powerful and athletic and good at what he does. He gets credit for that, however, he was infamous for his BJJ bashing. It needs to be known that though I feel that Tony could hang in a tough cla*s of competitors, his CACC is not superior to BJJ, nor is it invulnerable to BJJ techniques, as some claims have been made. It is just different. (I have strong evidence in support of this.) The man makes the art - For my friend Bill, he has found CACC is better for him than BJJ. For me, my BJJ is better than CACC, but I like to mix and match slightly with strongest favoritism to BJJ. Does this make Bill better than me? or vica versa? absolutely not. We chose to grapple in a different manner. If Bill submits me, is CACC superior to BJJ? If submit Bill is BJJ better than CACC? It's fatiquing....... Finally, I do not know Jake Shannon from Adam. I have had several internet conversations with him. I like the work he has done and have no personal loyalty or disputes with him. He is pa*sionate about his pursuit to bring to light claims Tony has made. I have no problem with this. I believe a man should have to "put up or shut up". Jake is simply asking for accountability. His tact is a little abrasive at times but that abrasiveness is what it takes to deal with Tony and his cronies at times. I also do not think it is fair that he is accused of being a rip off artist. He has brought to light great material that has been not lost but well out of the lime light for many a year. Jake, It is unfortunate you and I were screwed by someone we trusted. I do not blame you for your crusade. It is also unfortunate you never rolled live with Tony. Don't tie his mistreatment of you to his ability. I know I would like to, but I have to be honest. I do think it is important for you to know that he did roll live at one time and not just with "fish". That's all. Carry on your crusade. Gentlemen, If we all sat back and narrowed down all the Tony BS and controversy, blame lies solely on Tony for several things: #1 - His hatred of BJJ/GJJ #2 - His claims without full proof when called on the carpet #3 - His treatment of people who supported him If you removed these 3 items none of us would be having this conversation today would we? Shawn
|
|
|
Post by BillCogswell on Mar 19, 2006 9:04:07 GMT -5
Nice posts Shawn! I am locking this thread as this argument is getting beyond old at this point and neither side of these issues will ever back down to the other. There is some real good information on this thread and great statements from both sides of the issues (for those who have chosen sides that is), however, let's move on to more positive things please.
|
|