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Post by Vince on Dec 14, 2005 11:23:09 GMT -5
OK, this happened to me close to a year ago. What would you do?
It's close to midnight and for some reason you and your spouse are heading to Wal Mart for a late night run of some things you need. You are lost in conversation with your partner, and you are driving. You look in your rear view to change into the right lane so you can make the turn to go into Wal Mart, and you see there is enough room, although it is not much extra room. As you turn your signal on and begin moving over, the car behind you in the right lane speeds up in an attempt to not let you in. But it's too late... your already in. They blare on their horn and start flashing their lights at you. They follow you very closely.
What do you do now? Do you park? Do you go home, or to the police station maybe? They continue to follow you closely into the parking lot as you turn down one isle to park..
I parked. They pulled their car up right behind mine, blocking off any exit by vehicle.
As you exit your vehicle there are 2 large (300+ pounds) black women in the car, and the driver is screaming profanities at you at the top of her lungs. They look very quite poor from the looks of their raggy clothes and old, beat up car. There is an empty baby seat in the back seat. You and your wife have exited the car and are walking towards wal-mart.
Do you ignore her? Do you say anything back in reply?
I said "when someone turns their turn signal on to change lanes you should not take that as your signal to speed up and not let them in". That was more than enough to get the driver flying out of the car at me.
So now you have a 300+ pound pissed off black woman screaming, and running up to you. She is screaming over and over "I am gonna beat your a*s... I am gonna beat your a*s... Right now Mother F_ _ _ _ er", as she is shaking and waving her hands around wildly". She is looking at both you and your partner with extreme anger showing on her face. She is screaming so loudly that there is no chance she could hear anything you might say to her. She is going to be in range to attack you within 2 seconds as she is approaching quickly. She looks like she is going to attack.
You notice that as she is exiting her vehicle, the pa*senger is also exiting and coming around to come over to you, and you can tell that she weighs closer to 400 pounds now that she is standing.
Your partner has exited the vehicle, and the driver is between you and wal mart, which is the way you need to go.
There is alot to think about and remeber in this situation. Remember, she is blocking your vehicle exit and is in between you and the entrance to Wal Mart. Remember... your momma and this society always told you not to hit women. Remember... your partner (if this is the case... as it was with mine) is not trained in self-defence. If your partner is well trained, then just imagine that it is a loved one with you that cannot defend herself... like your grandmother maybe. Remember... there are probably witnesses or a camera since this is the Wal Mart parking lot. Can you think of self-defense laws and the legal ramifications of your actions at this exact moment? Remember... this whole situation is on you before you had a chance to mentally prepare for it... it is the last thing you expected on this late night trip to the store and it has hit you like a ton of bricks. Remember... the 400+ pound pa*senger will be right up on you in about 5 seconds... just as soon as she can run around the car.
What do you do? Do you let her get within range to attack you? Do you initiate an attack? Do you try to walk away? Do you try to calm her down? Do you fall into the fetal position and cry?
I'll tell what I did after we have had several replies on what you would do.
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Dec 14, 2005 13:20:24 GMT -5
Well....If you always carry a medium/large can of extra strong pepper spray in your center console, or withing reach, then you just exit the car with this in your hand. That's exactly the situation that i carry mine for. You never know when something like that will happen. If a guy tries to car jack me, more than likely he'll have a gun and i'll just give him the car anyway.... in this situation you just hold up the can and point it at their faces as they approach and shout out a warning to stop and that you have mace...
Or you could have that "small fry" 900,000volt taser gun that i had mentioned in a previous post within reach and just wait until she is right in your face and then just zap her. You could say that she verbally committed to physical violence and stated she was about to "kick your a*s" so you felt you had no other choice, since your mom taught you not to hit women.....therefore the taser gun was your only alternative.
Or, you could just stand in a "side standing" position as you prepare to launch a nice crisp jab in their direction as they approach. You can expidite their approach into your jab by asking them to beat you up.
Also, I don't abide by any rules in not hitting women. I think that's pretty much of a joke. Of course if i had a spouse of a significant other, and IN GENERAL i would never do it. But clearly some women take this as a license to get in your face and insult you. In these cases, if they were to physically touch me, i would not hesitate to "one punch" them into oblivion.
This actually happened to me in about the 5th grade. A girl actually wanted to fight me and kept enticing me. Finally after school we went out to the playground with a large crowd and i proceeded to mount her and rain down punches into her face until she was all bloody.....she started it, she wanted it, she got it....i felt no remorse after that either. At that point i didn't consider her a "girl" just another person.
If you didn't want to punch them b/c they were women you could have given them a really hard low kick to the knee if they were coming up on you hard. Being so fat they would take the full force in their knee and just go down.
More than likely though, i would just stand and stare directly at them and not say a word. Standing in a relaxed yet alert posture, not moving forward or backward, ready to strike should it come to that. Usually, the person will just yell a little and then after a while take off after they realize you won't fuel their fire and that they would have to physically attack you.
Most of the time people like that just want to physically intimidate you and to yell profanities in order to get some anger/aggression out. They will come to within an inch of fighting but usually wont follow through unless you oblige them. They are usually satisfied with knowing that they made somebody really scared and they were afraid of them.
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Dec 15, 2005 20:57:53 GMT -5
are you gonna tell us what you did? Or are you waiting for more responses.....If so, i feel that my response should count for at least 3 or 4 responses, so you can feel free to give us the whole story now.
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Post by Vince on Dec 16, 2005 1:02:51 GMT -5
Oh yea, I am waiting to hear how everyone else here would handle it before I say how I did!! So come on folks... what would you do!?!?!
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Post by Vince on Dec 16, 2005 1:06:37 GMT -5
Great post ArmyofOne. I think your pepper spray idea is a great idea for that situation.
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tac364
50+ Posts Member
RMATA Member
I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6.
Posts: 50
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Post by tac364 on Dec 16, 2005 7:01:54 GMT -5
Okay here it goes:
It is almost a daily occurrence here that when I turn on my signal light to change lanes someone always interprets that to mean they should speed up and not let me in. So I expect that and intentionally turn on my signal light and leave it on for way longer than expected waiting for a jerk to fly past me. Sure I know this cannot always be done due to: last min changes in travel plans, new areas, not aware of locations etc.
Next, if I do make it in, this jerk inevitably flashes his lights, gives me the finger, honks his horn, etc. and in return for his kind gestures I ususally wave back as if to say "oops" and the scenario ususually ends there. If for some reason I felt that I was being followed, I would never go to my intended destination if it were home, a relatives home, or anywhere else that would set the jerk up for a later strike.
Instead, I would do what I term "heat runs". Through work, I've come to know this as a behavior of drug dealers in our area, but it works in this scenario too. I would turn here and there, u-turns, and appear to be driving aimlessly until the knucklehead just left me alone.
...still following: drive to a crowded public place, supermarket, outlet malls, (your local martial arts training center, hint, hint!). Make sure there are witnesses around.Have a cell phone? Call your local police department and let them know that you feel you are in danger (describe the jerk's car and the jerk and his clothing if possible, in case the cops pull up and your wiping his a*s, they know who is who!)
Don't worry about parking your car in an empty space, this may be to far from the entrance to the location. Pull the car right up to the door!!! Get inside and seek help. Most business now at least have security guards or even off duty police officers working on site. Make a scene! Criminals hate when people make a scene, do not like to have a lot of witnesses and tend to leave the area.
Guess I'm trying to say, avoid getting in that position in the first place. But I know that is not the real question here, so I'll here is the real answer:
My wife and I have a lil system down. We never really came up with it, but more discovered it. In my line of work, I walk among some shady characters. Sometimes they are on my side, sometimes not....sometimes you never know. In a smaller town like mine, I tend to run into some of these people regularly. In can make shopping with the family or a dinner out a difficult thing.
One day we were walking through Wal~mart and walked upon an informant that I had been using to buy Heroin from some local drug dealers. He was scarfing down all the free samples and just looked like hell. I put my hand on my wife's arm and calmly said "go". She immediately turned the cart into the next eisle and walked our lil girls with her. She was gone (and she is a very strong-headed woman). It worked, I don't know why, but she totally got the idea that this was a situation to be avoided. This system has worked out well other times too. Have something in place to let your loved ones know that there is a time and place to get the hell out and get help. Unless they are an a*s-kicking machine too....then consider yourself lucky!
Okay, now I'm ready for the above situation:
I park my car, the "ladies" are screaming. That is the time that I would send my wife away - get me some help!!!!! Let's say my cell is dead to take that out of the equation. One woman is blocking the way and they other is on her way. What do I do?
Probably dart between cars. If I feel that I am not in emmient danger, I'll move. Get away from them. Chickennuts? Naw, just trying to avoid months of court hearings, court cost, lawyer fees...and that's even if I'm justified in taking them out. I'm no Vince Fields, but surely I can out move a couple of 300+ ladies right? So why bother...
Okay, let's say I am in some serious danger here...Let's say that the driver is encroaching on me quickly and there is time to run. . . . . I let her have it! But in doing so, I use clear, concise, and extremely loud verbal commands: "get back", "get away from me", "I don't want to hurt/harm/injure you", "leave me alone", anything...let the witnesses know you are just pounding this lady for the hell of it...you are defending yourself.
Keep in mind that you should only be using the force necessary to defend yourself, to control the situation...who's to say when enough is enough? Well at that moment, you are. You have to continually evaluate the situation and determine whether or not to increase/decrease your force options. But remember, there will be those who stand in judgement later.
Coach Tony Blauer (www.tonyblauer.com) says that there are 3 fights in every physical confrontation:
You v. You: This is you giving yourself consent to fight, allowing yourself to defend yourself. This would where the driver was blocking the door. Can I really hit a woman...if you're in danger of getting injured, you bet. Some people never get past this point.....sadly, I have seen some police officers never get past this point.
You v. The Bad Guy: This is the obvious fight, the action, the force.
You v. Perception: As mentioned, there will be those who judge your actions: the police, the court, your friends and family, the media. I believe that this fight is often responsible for the loss of the previous two fights. I believe that it should be used more as a gauge, as a "ref stoppage" rather than a hinderance for defence. Footnote: thanks Coach Blauer.
Now, when it's said and done and if you're still coherent. Call the police!!!!! Don't leave the scene. If you do that, officers will only get one side of the story, and it's not your's!!! Stick around but distance yourself. Tell the officer exactly what happened. If you were scared, then dammit say you were scared!!! Don't try to play the tough guy, tell them you were scared and thought you were fixin' to get your a*s handed to you by two large angry women!!!!! ....and make sure it goes in your report...give a written statement (if you want to). That way you have a documented recollection of the events that can be used in court later if necessary. In not, you may end up in court months or years later. Try remember all the little details without something in writing....
Guess that's about it. I think I've covered some prevention/action/post-action stuff. I'd like to hear from some others as well as what Vince really did. Good luck to everyone out there. Plan ahead, cause you only get a split decision to make these decisions.
God bless, Johnny
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Post by Vince on Dec 16, 2005 10:48:06 GMT -5
Excellent reply Johnny. Being a police officer and a student of Tony Blauer's that is exactly the kind of thinking I would expect from you. Very good.
I'll get to my actions after several more replies to see what other folks who read this would do. I will say this though... I have studied Tony's material for years and am very aware of all that you mentioned in your last post... but if I could do it over I would have choosen different actions. Namely, I would'nt have stopped until they were not following me anymore to simply avoid the situation. If they continued to follow I should have driven to a safe place, such as my local PD, and called the PD to inform them of the situation. Part of what allowed this situation to even happen was that I was completely not expecting the situation and was not THINKING about self defense/ legal factors when it was suddenly upon me and so I was thrust into the fire before I had prepared for it.
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tac364
50+ Posts Member
RMATA Member
I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6.
Posts: 50
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Post by tac364 on Dec 16, 2005 18:56:37 GMT -5
Thanks Vince, I'll check in for the "rest of the story"...
Johnny
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Post by BillCogswell on Dec 17, 2005 22:38:25 GMT -5
Hmmm, great topic and question. If the car continued following me I would drive towards a very crowded area or Police station as was mentioned. If I didn't realize the car was following me until I had parked and the women got out I would begin apologizing loudly (so she hears me before getting crazy) before she headed toward me. If she continued towards me I would have to think about getting into a non violent but "ready" protective posture before she reached within arms length, just in case. I think I would try my best to continue saying I was sorry but move away from the women and towards the store. If the worst happens and she swings at me I protect myself but do not return any force, unless absolutely necessary (she has pulled a weapon and is intent on using it). Tough call with this one but protecting the person I am with has got to me #1, so avoidance is key. By the way, how is it a 300 and 400lb. woman can get that worked up?
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Post by Vince on Dec 17, 2005 23:02:33 GMT -5
Avoidance is always a great idea. Now Bill... if it came right down to the attack you would protect yourself but not return any force... even with someone you love there right next to you who cannot defend herself? How long would you defend her strikes? Just let her keep hitting at you until she stops? What if she or her 400 pound friend decide to go after your significant other?
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Post by BillCogswell on Dec 18, 2005 19:42:56 GMT -5
The only force I would use would possibly be to control the attacking women. I would actually put up with a couple of shots but if she was intent on not stopping then I would look to control her via the usual standing control methods such as wristlock control, tie up her arms (chicken wings, etc.)and get behind her, etc.
Now if the attacker or two attackers (women in this example) were also intent on attacking my wife I would have to 'up' the amount of force to insure their intentions were not met. I would look to put one on the ground and control the other until my wife (or whomever was with me)were able to get to a safe location and call for help. If need be I would keep one on the ground (stand on her if I had to ;D) while defending and looking to control the second women. Possibly even just keep putting them to the ground one at a time if need be if they continued to attack. I just don't think I have it in me to strike a women full force unless a weapon became involved and it was obvious I had no choice.
Now, one scenario that may cause me to strike a women would be if she attacked one of my children. Now the stakes are raised but, this isn't the case with this example.
When are you going to tell us what you did? ;D
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Dec 18, 2005 20:25:04 GMT -5
use the MT clinch on the fat lady as she comes forward to attack you .....from there you could EASILY just step back and drive her straight into the ground. Now just put a knee on her and hold her down....if the other one steps up, then tell her to back away, if she doesn't and tries to pull you off, then go for a punch or a sub hold like maybe a guillotine.....now if the first lady tries to get up and help then do the same to her, and then just go back and fourth until you wear them down.....
In general, no mercy for fat ladies attacking you.....First off i would tell the wife to stay IN the car prior to exiting. She should know this is what she should do in the first place.
If all else fails......pull out a twinkie and tell them if they can catch you then they can have it..... then just run around the parking lot while they chase you....after a while they will be ga*sed and u/a to continue....at which point you go up to them and eat the twinkie yourself while mocking and teasing them while they are too ga*sed to attack.
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Post by Vince on Dec 18, 2005 20:48:12 GMT -5
OK, here's what happened. As I got out of my car and began walking towards the entrance of Wal Mart the driver had exited her car and was coming at me full speed, uttering profanities and threats all the while. She was saying something to the effect of "I'm gonna kick your a_ _ right now... RIGHT NOW mother f_ _ _ er." I felt pretty sure that she was going to strike me, which wasn't that scary of a thought given that I was pretty sure she would not know how to throw a punch properly. I'd have been in trouble though if she did know how to put her weight behind it.
Anyway, my main concern was for my wife who was right beside me. Normally I would not allow anyone who was displaying such aggression to come within 1 arm's distance of me, and I would step back and launch a pre-emptive strike if the ignored my orders for them to stop. However this woman could hear nothing that I was saying since she was at top volume. I stepped back when she came close but she continued on and got right up to me, chest to chest. She was pumping herself up verbally, and I still expected a strike to come at any moment. I knew there would be witnesses to this and I decided that no matter what she said, I would not do anything physical until I had been a*saulted first. I would not have taken this strategy if it had been a male, or even a real tough looking female.
Anyway… she is screaming in my face still, and my efforts to calm her down and talk this situation out cannot even be heard. Her larger pa*senger friend has stopped at the rear of her car, about 5 feet away from us, behind the driver to her left. The driver continues this screaming at me, and sort of chest bumping me for quite a while. I try to walk around her to grab my wife and go to the entrance of Wal Mart, but she cuts me off with her body. After maybe 60 seconds of this screaming (which seemed like an eternity to me) she stops… sort of like she didn’t know what to do since I just stood there letting her go on. The she looks over at my wife… my 100-pound Asian wife, and decides to turn her fury on her. She begins screaming at my wife and starts quick stepping to get right up to her, but I would not allow this to happen. I jumped in between them before the driver could get in her face and I held my arms out so that she could not get in my face again. The driver tried to push into me to get close again, but I kept my arms extended and would not allow it. There was no way I was going to let this woman get in my wife’s face, who was standing there with her jaw dropped open in shock of the whole situation this whole time. I turned my head to my wife and told her to run inside of Wal Mart right now and to call the police. The driver was trying to push into and around me to get to my wife now, and I had to push back to keep her away. My wife was frozen and I yelled for her to go inside now and call the police.
This was when the driver hit me. She hit me with a right haymaker as I was looking towards my wife. There wasn’t much behind it and it didn’t do any damage, only because she didn't know how to strike properly. When the pa*senger saw this she ran up to me and gave me an openhanded smack/ claw on the left side of my neck that drew small lines of blood on my neck. I didn’t even try to block it as I was hoping witnesses would see all of this. When my wife saw them hit me she ran up close and wanted to help, but didn’t know what to do.
Now here is where I had a decision to make. What do I do now? If I had been alone I would have grappled with them both, probably throwing them (not too hard) to the ground and when possible stacking them on top of each other, holding them there until help or the police came. However I was not alone, and I was afraid of my wife getting injured in this melee. If one of these women fell on her they could possible cause serious injury. They had both just struck me unprovoked, and I knew my wife would be struck very soon if I didn’t do something. As they were striking they were yelling at me still, and the pa*senger woman had joined in on the yelling. They really had their selves pumped up for this. I wanted this physical altercation to be over immediately, and I was not going to try to grapple them one at a time with my wife so close.
So as soon as the 2nd strike hit me, I threw 2 quick crosses… one to the driver and one to the pa*senger. The punches were straight and crisp, landing on the jaw/ chin of each. It took maybe 1 second total for both punches to land. I intentionally took a lot of power off of the punches so that I wouldn’t cause serious injury to the women, but the half power punches still knocked them both back into their car and dropped them to the ground.
For the first time in what seemed like forever there was sudden and total silence. After 10 seconds or so the women got up, clutching their faces, but were no longer shouting or advancing. I again told my wife to go inside and call the police, and this time she did.
Very soon after that a black woman ran up… and I was surprised at what she said to the 2 women. She said “I saw him beating on you 2 from across the parking lot”. I asked her if she saw them hit me first, and she said something like “you’re in a lot of trouble”. I didn't bother speaking to her again as I knew she was either lying or missed the part where they hit me first.
Anyway, the police came, got everyone’s story and took written statements. I asked them if they would check the Wal Mart security camera so they could see that the story was exactly as I described it. The 2 women lied to the police, telling them basically that I just beat them up and they had done nothing wrong. After the officer who I gave my statement to got the whole story, he told me he would have done the same thing if it could not have been avoided. I was told that they would be in touch soon if we needed to go to court or anything.
After a few days I called and spoke with that officer and he said the altercation was too far from the cameras and so they were not going to pursue it anymore. I had no desire to pursue it and charge the women with a*saulting me, because I felt it would already be a good lesson for them and I didn’t want to go through the legal trouble of trying to get them in trouble.
So the lessons learned or reinforced for me?
1. Be a defensive driver. 2. If someone is following you, go to a crowded area, or preferably a police station. Call the police while you are on the way. 3. Have a plan with your wife or partner for when this type of situation happens. 4. Have pepper spray ready for such a situation. Before they get within 1 arm’s distance, warn them not to and give them a face full of it if they still advance. 5. Don’t hit women. Sure, everyone’s heard that. However these attackers were not women… they were simply female. I hated to be forced to strike them, even if it wasn’t at full power, but I had to defend my wife and myself. I feel very confident that they brought this situation upon themselves. 6. Be aware of how race can play into situations. I feel that the black women “witness” only said what she said to the police because it was 2 black women against 1 white guy. I have nothing against any race, as I have friends, teachers, and students of all races. Heck, I am in an inter-racial marriage myself. However the reality of this world we live in is that there is often animosity among different races, and I experienced that in this situation for sure. While being yelled at by the 2 women, the pa*senger even called me the N word, which I just ignored like the rest of their verbal insults.
In hindsight I would have handled the situation a bit differently for sure, in that I would have simply kept driving until I wasn’t followed anymore or went to the police station. That would have avoided the whole situation. I also would have used mace on pepper spray on them if I had it with me... which I should have and now do. Oh well, hopefully some of you all can pick something up useful from this real experience I had.
Vince
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Post by ArmyOfOne on Dec 19, 2005 1:18:14 GMT -5
it's kind of sad how race DOES play a role in these things.... It's also kind of sad how females consider themselve "above being struck" in situations like this. Believing they can just be as aggressive as they want with total impunity. And the fact that after the police came they lied to them is pretty much to be expected.
I'm a little surprised that they wanted to follow through as you are pretty tall yourself. I thought maybe they were bluffing as far as claiming they were going to hit you...but i guess not.
The reason pepper spray is so good (and the car can hold a larger can than you would normally hold in your pocket), is that you can exit the car with it in hand (possibly out of sight initially), and then once you've determined that this person will come up on you and get in your face, rather than just wanted to discuss what happened, you can tell him to stay back. If he doesn't, and crosses the line you just let him have it.... and afterwards you can say he was physically threatening you, etc. etc. ....and you can call the police yourself as well after just to cover yourself.....In many ways pepper spray is the perfect initial weapon, that is if you have it with you and it's easily accessible. It will allow you to have that critical "safety buffer zone" that will allow you to keep them at a distance. Otherwise, once they are in striking range, the sucker punch is going to come at some point. And obviously, they were just waiting for you to look away before they came with a strike so that you couldn't see it coming.......the usual technique on the street.
I have to say, i think it's too bad you didn't put a little more mustard on those shots though. People like that are really the scum of the earth and i would have loved to see them go down a little harder.
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Post by BillCogswell on Dec 19, 2005 7:38:02 GMT -5
Good story Vince and I hope it never happens again. That's the reason I wouldn't hit a women unless it became a very serious possibly life threatening situation. Most witnesses would not have heard any initial "talks" between you and the attacker and would most likely only "see" a big man hitting a women. They automatically look at that as wrong regardless of what happened prior. And the fact that they were black, makes things even worse as nowadays the race card is pulled on almost every situation. (sad but true)
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tac364
50+ Posts Member
RMATA Member
I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6.
Posts: 50
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Post by tac364 on Dec 21, 2005 19:36:50 GMT -5
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...you're still here to talk about...
Stay safe everybody.
Johnny
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