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Post by Vince on Jan 20, 2006 1:03:01 GMT -5
I've had a few questions about this so I thought I'd share it with ya'll. I also realize that I might get some very good suggestions/ thoughts/ comments about it.
I am now writing my thesis for my master's in Administration of Justice. Here is my topic question;
Do police officers who regularly partipate in realistic martial arts training both cause and receive fewer injuries on the job than police officers who do not?
Of course I define all of my terms, and I'll share a bit of that with you.
"Regularly" is defined of as at least 4 hours per month. Any less than that and I'm not interested in studying what effect it may have.
"Realistic martial arts training" briefly consists of those who do whatever combative type of training they do with full resistance in every range of combat. In a nutshell, they spar and grapple.
I hypothesize that officers who do regularly engage in realistic martial arts training do in fact cause and recieve fewer injuries on the job than those that don't. However, I have not reached that conclusion just yet in my paper... stay tuned.
I'll be sure and post it here when it is finished.
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migo
50+ Posts Member
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Post by migo on Apr 13, 2006 19:16:58 GMT -5
All I can say is I look forward to it, I don't have enough experience in that area to really say anything, and I'm not getting any random ideas popping up either.
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Post by toejoe2k on May 5, 2006 15:29:25 GMT -5
Whoa! You're going to have a long row to hoe in attempts to gather that type of data...not many shortcuts available to you there. Good luck and post the results, cuz that's good information and good a marketing tool for instructors.
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zach
New Member
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Post by zach on May 5, 2006 19:42:19 GMT -5
That will be a really good thesis. I'll bet you could find a number of testamonials from officers who have used his/her training to prevent injury. The knowledge of how to apply choke holds alone could prevent alot of injuries. If a suspect is hopped up on drugs and isnt really being affected by pain, or just enraged and cannot be calmed, if they are caught in a choke hold and put to sleep the confrontation will be immeadiately ended rather peacefully. Once the suspect is out the officer can slap the cuffs on and take him away with little risk of injury to the suspect also. I guess you will also have to look at the possibility of greater injury being caused by officers who are trained in a realistic fashion. For example, if an officer knows some nasty takedowns or throws and these are performed in a street situation, great harm could be inflicted on the suspect, but the officer himself will probably have a much smaller chance of being injured, which is the most important thing. I think also that Royce, and maybe some of the other Gracies travel quite often giving seminars to law enforcement officers, so maybe they have done some extensive ersearch in this area.
Zach
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Post by daileyc on May 6, 2006 19:00:37 GMT -5
Hey Vince, very good research topic. Although because of public safety administration politics, I doubt you will ever find the real answer because common sense is not found in such organizations. There are also so many variables involved. The suspect ALWAYS dictates the level of injury to himself. If you are a tough guy and try to play the part of one, you will go to jail via the designated hospital. However, even during very minor scuffles, police officer's routinely injure themselves. Be it scraped knuckles, scuffed elbows and knees, to more extreme busted lips and noses and broken bones. So my experience has shown that pro-use of force officers do cause less injuries to others but that also increases the minor injuries to themselves due to the increased use of force. Unfortunately way too many officers are far too conservative when it comes to using force which also decreases injuries to suspects but increases the severity of injuries to the officer's beyond the typical scrape. So you're idea is correct "IMO" but too difficult to document. Good luck.
As far as the Gracie's training LE, I truely believe that until you have scuffled under the conditions that a street cop scuffles under (or been taught by one that has), the specificity of the training is limited. Give me a battle hardened, pro-use of force, 20 year verteran cop over the Gracies any day. You will go home alive so that you can go play Gracie Jiu-jitsu at the gym.
Chad
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zach
New Member
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Post by zach on Jul 4, 2006 16:58:34 GMT -5
The point I was trying to get across with the Gracies giving seminars is that they may have done some in depth research into this topic that may be very useful to look at while putting together this thesis. I mean research into statistics and such that may be very helpful. The reason i thought they may have done this is because if they had done some research along the lines of what Vince's thesis is about, that would be a very powerful marketing tool for them to help them sell their seminars (whether they are very effective or not) ...
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Post by theredant on Jan 1, 2007 3:29:28 GMT -5
Greetings Vince, I just joined this site and have been "surfing" some of the post and came across your question. First I would like to introduce myself...my name is Brian and I am a friend of Dr. Erickson; Ken told me of your site and I finally checked it out! Moreover, I am a professor of criminal justice at the State University of New York at Jamestown Community College. Needless to say, your question about police and the use of force piqued my interest.
I teach a variety of law enforcement related cla*ses as well as one in self defense for law enforcement. The course is not for those in the police academy, but rather for students to gain some insight into what one might expect to encounter when working in the field. I was a deputy sheriff in Pinellas County (Fla) and hold a graduate degree in Administration of Justice as well. I have trained with Ken and consider him a world cla*s instructor, but more importantly to me, a honest and wonderful friend. Getting back to your question--I have a few suggestions to offer. 1. As you know, law enforcement officers encounter many variables when confronting suspects in the field...yet alone the injuries they may sustain. For example, an officer may slip while chasing a suspect and break an ankle and not even lay a hand on them; perhaps injuries in your study should be defined as those injuries suffered while trying to "restrain" or cuff a suspect? 2. As you might know, the escalation in the use of force continuum depends on many factors, some of which include: size of suspect and officer; numbers of officers/suspects; proximity to a fire are or weapon; and of course skill levels of both officer and suspect...this is where I trust you want to measure officer performance? It just seems you would have to take into consideration all those factors I just mentioned in your analysis. What do you think about perhaps looking into "training levels of officers and the use tasers, pepper spray, baton, or lethal force?" In other words, I would suppose one might see a correlation between officers well trained in self defense in having to use less "serious" force when confronting an uncooperative suspect( for example, the person who can't control an individual in simple restraining of cuffing techniques ends up having to pepper spray or tase someone). I would love to talk further about this and hope to hear back from you. Kenny has spoken highly of your group and I am glad to get to participate in some of the discussions to follow.
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Post by Vince on Jan 2, 2007 15:14:11 GMT -5
Hi Brian, welcome to the forum and it's great to have you here. I look forward to your contributions, especially in the areas of use of force and police related issues.
I appeciate your input on my thesis and I consider it in great detail later.
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Post by donmgwinn on Jan 7, 2007 15:27:37 GMT -5
This probably won't be much use in your thesis research, but I saw it and thought of you: www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49807 (Discussion) www.txdps.state.tx.us/docs/Active%20Countermeasures%20Training%20Evaluation.pdf (Report from the Texas DPS) The short version seems to be that the Texas DPS training program has had a death occur during their "live" sparring module. They refer to this as "boxing." The trainee had an existing concussion and was struck hard enough to cause trauma resulting in death. As a result, the DPS is abandoning that part of the training altogether. I'm on dial-up at the moment, so I'm not reading the 68-page PDF report online, but here it is for what it's worth.
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