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Post by Vince on Mar 30, 2004 3:11:34 GMT -5
Hey folks, I got permission to post this from the guy that posted it on a different martial arts forum. I found it to be an interesting read.
Vince
Hey guys, I wanted to bounce a few ideas off of you guys to get some input.
Me and my partner have been talking about some ideas in the way we run our school and the way mma/grappling schools are run in general. (I'm going to use just grappling schools so I don't have to continue to type both out, and the fact that the general public might find doing mma a little to much)
If you compare the enrollment of your average grappling school to many of the traditional martial arts schools out there you will notice a big difference in the amount of students enrolled in the grappling schools compared to the TMA schools.
It is not uncommon to find TMA schools out there with several hundred students in towns of 20,000 people, not just big cities. Yes there are a few grappling schools with large enrollment #'s, but for the most part I don't think we come close to the TMA #'s.
For example, our school has been growing faster then I anticipated but right when we opened up, a Kenpo school opened in the same town. They have way more people then we do. I went down to check out what they were doing, not a judgement on the art itself, but the teacher was out of shape, and what he was teaching was just crap. But his cla*s was packed full of people and they were loving it.
Now here we are, we have the fortune of having BJJ blackbelts and brownbelts, and UFC veterens teaching cla*s. We are growing, but I see many people come in looking to learn a martial art, but it's not what they expect. And if you think about it I can totally understand;
They come in and see a group of guys rolling around, wearing board shorts, mma shorts, tee-shirt, rashguards, whatever. They are practicing wrapping their legs around another guy. The attitude is very relaxed, no bowing, no sensei, no push up's on your knuckles for screwing up. In most cases the group probably consists of younger males that are in fairly good shape. (Intimidating to any one not in that category) And to top it off the guy teaching isn't an old oriental guy full of wisdom.
So then they go to some TMA school. They walk in see people all in uniforms (Gi's) they see people lining up in rank with all sorts of belts, being tought really good fighting techiniques like jump spinning back kicks, and performing impressive feats like breaking boards. There are all types of people in the group; men, women, children, overweight people, skinny people etc. all working out together. And there is Mr. Miagi teaching cla*s just as they had hoped for.
Ok I'm generalizing, but the point is, when people walk into a TMA school they see what they expect to see. All of the expectations they have of what a martial arts school is supposed to be are there. When they walk into a grappling school looking to get into martial arts it probably looks a little chaotic by comparison. People are wearing whatever they want, from ripped shirts to underwear looking shorts. It just doesn't look as prfessional. If people walk into our school and they came because they saw the UFC or know who Royce Gracie is, we usually get them as students because they are already past the hurdle of understanding how effective grappling/mma is. But if they come off the street because they want to learn a martial art and just saw the sign, it's much less likely they will sign up after one cla*s. Because the average person on the street doesn't see how learning to hold side comtrol or learning a choke can compare to the idea that they just need to learn one punch that will just take their opponent out.
So what we've figured is, we need to hook em. Because grappling/mma is an awesome sport and once someone gets what's going on and how great it is for exercise, self-defence, discpline, or fun (All the reasons people do martial arts) they are hooked for good. But it's that first impression when they walk in the door, it's teaching the first cla*s to them and getting them to the point where they can understand exactly what this sport is about that is tough.
One of the suggestions was to wear gi pants, and require people to wear black shirts. This would look more uniformed to people that walk in. It would give more of a sense of order to the cla*s instead of looking like a group of guys skipping gym cla*s. My concern was that it felt like selling out. I hate wearing gi pants if I don't have to, and anyone that came into the school that is already into the sport might think "what the hell is going on here" It would seem like a karate school teaching grappling or something.
So here is my question, what do you guys see at your schools or other schools? Or what are some ideas on how to hook your average guy off the street so they get past the fact that grappling/mma is not what they have come to expect in martial arts. How do we grow our sport so our enrollment equals and surpases that of TMA schools?
http://www.ma*sbjj.com
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tac364
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RMATA Member
I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6.
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Post by tac364 on Mar 30, 2004 16:04:41 GMT -5
In my opinion, definitely don't force your current students (partners) into compliance to suite your prospective ones.
Some schools, like Krav Maga, hold introductory cla*ses with a group of potential students. This will prevent the new student from feeling like an outsider and will provide him with a group atmosphere where he can feel welcome.
In this intro. there should be a portion of the cla*s where the instructor explains the philosophy of the gym (school) and what is expected of them. It should be explained why training is conducted the way that is and how much more effective it will be.
TMA into cla*ses that I have seen, routinely throw one person in with a group that has been training together for a period of time. The new student rarely asks questions and usually feels intimidated by the more advanced students. The student may or may not show up again.
I come from a very traditional background. The style included many katas and choreographed reactions, proper where of gi at all times, and rarely questioning the sensei.
Lately, I trained with several outstanding fighters. Some participate in formal training (with a twist) and others participate in informal training focusing on street applications.
The key factor is knowing that I will be an effective fighter in all ranges of combat, and knowing that I have training partners who care enough to put a hurting on me in training, and enough to lift me up afterwards. Having intense yet safe training partners with "no egos, no attitudes, and no politics" is the only way to go. Unfortunately, I've never seen a TMA without them.
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Post by Vince on Apr 2, 2004 13:40:55 GMT -5
Good points!
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Post by joethejet on Apr 2, 2004 23:30:09 GMT -5
Truth in martial arts is in the heart. It is your belief in the system and in your instructors. It is not receiving a BB in 2 years and saying, "I have a black belt." It is about living a martial arts view with honor, commitment, loyalty, courage (I sound like a US Marine recruiter), but there is a lot to be said about having a structure behind the scenes. It helps students understand to a point, and when they get there, they figure out they really don't know too much about their or any other martial art. It is a life long search for knowledge.
Jay put it well the other night... A MA school is a tool in your tool box, whether it be standup, boxing, kicking, weapons, ground, throws, grappling, you name it... They are all tools in your toolbox of life and we should all try to look at each school for the benefits for that student.
We have a student with a debilitating disease. She would not be able to take a grappling style, but our style she is fine with and has commented that it saved her life. As for other students’ thoughts on which MA to follow, to each his/her own, I would like to say.
As for growth, there has to be a value-add in everyone’s school. Not just the physical part, but also the mental, spiritual and sometimes the emotional. Instructors, just like any other type of teacher, will have responsibilities beyond just the physical part of MA. They may have to counsel, advise, nurture, baby (I dislike this part), and give life skills to their students. Sometimes we don't like it, but it is a fact that with skills comes responsibility, and the more skill the more responsibility.
Live with it, be attentive to the students needs and if they need knuckle push-ups for being a knucklehead, then so be it!!! Good luck to all, and keep it realistic!!!
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Post by Fred OKeefe on Apr 16, 2004 3:18:43 GMT -5
I don't think having students wear gi pants is selling out. They are only pants, hell most people wear pants everyday of thier lives. The t-shirts are a good idea, have ones with your logo and number and get some students from the competition. IMO you are only "selling out" if you teach material that you know is wrong for a quick buck, not trying to grow a business so you can feed your family. The notion that your a sell out if you do things one way and your a rebel if you do it another is bull. If you think that your selling out by keeping thing "real" and not making a buck you are, your selling out your family, kids and wife, everyone that counts on you to make a good living so they can go to the dentist, grocery store, make car payments, pay the bills and maybe even go to college some day. Trying to make money is not selling out its making a living.
Tac364 said (not a rebut to you just my opinion on the statements) "Having intense yet safe training partners with "no egos, no attitudes, and no politics" is the only way to go." I whole heartly agree with that, but you don't need anarchy to acheive that either. You can have a structued enviroment and the above statement too. If you have your current students or partners wear pants, they shouldn't mind if they are truly friends, partners, students or whatever they would understand what you are trying to accomplish with your life.
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Post by Vince on Apr 16, 2004 11:20:21 GMT -5
Fred, I can toatally see where your coming from. However some people just dont want to be forced to wear a certain type of clothing in training. I'm one of those guys. I hate wearing GI pants. I'll usually train in a GI at least once a week, but it's for the practice and I dont prefer it.
I like the idea of having everyone wear the same shirt. At the Inosanto Academy everyone has to at least wear a black shirt, and it's preferred that they wear the school shirt. If people want to wear GI pants, shorts or jogging pants, it's up to them. It does add to an air of professionilism for sure.
Just my 2 cents....
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Post by samantha711 on May 23, 2005 9:53:25 GMT -5
Like you, Vince, we train with a gi only once a week. We are the chaotic bunch of people who train hard and get hit and occasionally hurt. We have managed to gather a group of about 15 who really want to train hard and really consider what is "realistic" and useful. We are die hard UFC/Pride lovers and MMA fanatics.
We have the same phenomenon here in Arizona. The McDojo type TMA dojos are always packed. My friends act like I shouldn't be disgusted by some of them (my old dojo in particular) but I'm sorry, for a monthly fee ANYONE can be a blackbelt in two years. I received a black belt in one of them and the only reason I don't feel guilty about it is because I was one of the few that stayed late nights, on weekends, taught cla*ses, and DID OTHER TRAINING (boxing, JJ/BJJ etc). But, most black belts that come from my old school are 16 year old kids that couldn't protect themselves from an 80 year old pervert!
Nonetheless, those schools continue to draw professionals and kids because it's safe (they don't have to be kicked or punched) and it's what they see on tv and in movies. There is a market, a big market for these schools. I guess we can't expect everyone to understand why we train like we do, I honestly believe that we are a certain breed, and that's ok by me. Suze
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Post by Vince on May 23, 2005 10:19:01 GMT -5
Great post Sue. We have to let others do what they do. It was a hard lesson for me to learn that not everyone is into the martial arts to learn how to fight well and defend theirselves for real.... and thats ok.
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migo
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Post by migo on Apr 6, 2006 20:32:51 GMT -5
Personally I like smaller cla*ses, less chance of running into other people as they're training.
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lance
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Post by lance on Apr 7, 2006 14:03:51 GMT -5
part of the issue at hand though is trying to make a living out of martial arts vs something you do on the side. Part of the sucess of trad arts is an easily definable system of progression, obtaining a belt is a gratifying experience, some schools have used a coloured t-shirt system... Rolling around on the floor with someone between your legs is unappealing to a lot of people, whereas karate/taekwondo etc fits more into peoples comfortable personal space. The other thing that i think worries people in mma/grappling schools is the fuzzy divide between the athletes people see on the ufc , etc and how that translates to an individual who does martial arts for recreation... in other words the intimidation factor
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Post by Vince on Apr 7, 2006 14:55:32 GMT -5
Very good points lance.
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Post by daileyc on Apr 8, 2006 12:01:44 GMT -5
I think the biggest issue posed is that of running a business. The TMA are generally very rooted in good business practices, at least the chain schools. Most grappling schools were formed because a hobby became too expensive. Most MMA and grappling schools don't distinguish between beginner, intermediate, and advanced, amateur and professional. They just get on the mat and roll. The problem is that each person does MA for different reasons and professional fighting typically is not even on the list. So, many would be grappling martial artist simply go somewhere else because the goals and ideals of a particular grappling school do not fit their personal goals. If MMA and grappling are going to be as big as other schools, a change in direction may help. For example, at our club our blocks of instruction are geared toward beginner and intermediate level rollers. This gives those people that are not interested in professional competitive fighting a chance to pressure test their skills while they learn yet not have to worry about rolling with people that are much better than they are and constantly have to tap without ever really learning anything (even though you do learn everytime you tap, you just my not like the lesson learned). As time goes on and the club builds a nice competition team, our goals may change but for now it works. I said all of that to say this: find a niche and stick with it. If you train professional fighters understand that most do not want that. If you work with kids, understand that some adults may choose to go to a more "grown up" school. We can't be everything to everyone but we can be the best fit for someone.
Take care Chad
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lance
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Post by lance on Apr 10, 2006 13:02:44 GMT -5
I think the idea of a beginners cla*s is a good one, if you are trying to attract more people into a school, it greatly reduces the sense of intimidation, or at the least to split cla*ses at certain times into beginners and int/advanced, and make it clear... I recently started my son in martial arts (i started bjj/mma cla*ses as well with him) and he was terrified of going at first, he nearly started wrestling before but when he realised he'd have to wear a lycra onesie he no longer wanted to go.. he was determined though that he didnt want to attend any other session other than the one that was for mainly beginners, after that one session he was happy to attend the other ones, plus in that beginners session there were some of the seniors from the club helping out, so he felt happier and more comfortable attending... we are currently on our second week attending, and he has decided he wants to challenge the senior instructor to roll this week lol
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Post by victorparlati on Apr 10, 2006 12:46:03 GMT -5
Would hate to see MMA/grappling schools go the TMA McDojo route. Perhaps tweak the protocol a little bit in order to get some more members - like Inosanto's idea of everyone wearing a black shirt with the school logo...perhaps some regularly scheduled "beginners" cla*ses, perhaps one or two informal tests along the way: "I pa*sed my intermediate level test the other day, after studying here for the last 2.5 years"...and maybe 18-24 months later: "I pa*sed my advanced level test the other day"... But that's it.
No belts....no sashes...no titles. And lots of realistic hard training.
And don't expect to make your living solely from this. VERY FEW people can - and still be legit, imo.
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lance
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Post by lance on Apr 10, 2006 14:27:18 GMT -5
Thats the thing though, making it commercially viable vs not making a buisness out of it... what a lot of mma places do is have their commercial cla*ses, which pay the bills, and have their fighters train seperately...
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migo
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Post by migo on Apr 10, 2006 21:06:56 GMT -5
Our school uses belts for those who want to rank up but not fight. Most of our pro fighters are technically white belts. I don't think having it as an option has McDojofied us.
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Post by DiamondMMA on Apr 22, 2006 22:45:41 GMT -5
Hey Vince, have you ever thought about opening up a martial arts school, or center?? I mean, these are just some of my own ideas.. because one day, I would like to own and opperate something like that. How about teaching different aspects of martial arts, to appeal to EVERYBODY? Like have an experienced BOXER teach a boxing cla*s... and maybe a TKD guy teach TKD.. then even bring in a WRESTLING COACH!!! That way the wrestlers have a place to wrestle and learn during the "off-season". I mean.... you could still teach your MMA.. but it would just be a seperate cla*s.. in maybe a different area of the training center. I mean hell, you could even throw in there some weights to offer the "muscle-heads"! LOL I mean, you kinda catch my drift, right?? I mean that way you DRAW in the numbers... and then once they're there... then if they like something else they see... they can jump right into it. Hit me back if U have NE questions or anything... Oh, and this is copyrighted by the way... so THERE!!!
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Post by Vince on Apr 23, 2006 10:09:42 GMT -5
Keith,
Sure, I have thought about it, and I know it's not for me. There are several reasons why this is. A school like this is great... a true mixed martial arts training center. I love training at places like that. One of the best I've ever trained at is the Inosanto Academy in Los Angeles. At any time during any day of the week you can go and learn from experts in many styles of martial arts. It is a great learning and training environment and experience.
I don't want to own, run, and operate a commercial school. Part of it is the responsibility involved with that. I'd have to be there at regularly scheduled times, which would have to be very often (4 to 5 days a week or so). I would have to try and attract new students and make a profit. I would have to teach new students basic material over and over as more new students came in. I'd have to run it as a business and worry about profits, advertising, etc.
None of those things are appealing to me. I prefer to have a law enforcement job and simply do private lessons and seminars. I can work with guys who are dedicated to really work hard and help them in more of an individual setting. I can schedule lessons whenever I want and not be committed to show up every day at the same times to teach "cla*s". I don't want it to become a business type of mindset for me. I like helping individuals develop their skills and help add to their individual defensive abilities. I have fun with it and enjoy it. I make sure that in every private lesson I spar and grapple with each student and that they really get the personalized information and development they need in their martial arts journy. I could never do that in a cla*s. I ran a cla*s for 6 years and I did have fun with it, but for the long haul it's just not what I prefer.
Now if anyone has the desire (along with the ability) to open and run a school then I wish them the best of luck with it. I love training at well rounded MMA schools that offer instruction in many aspects of martial arts. The really good ones are extremely rare.
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migo
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Post by migo on Sept 24, 2007 3:55:00 GMT -5
Our school uses belts for those who want to rank up but not fight. Most of our pro fighters are technically white belts. I don't think having it as an option has McDojofied us. Funny I'm now seeing my school in a quite different light. It actually ties in with Vince's post. The part that basically killed the school (for me, it's going strong financially), is the advertising to the point that we have so many new students that there's hardly any time to train. I've now gone back to my original training group. We split up around 3 years ago and each went different ways, and we're now back together each with a different set of experiences, and I'm pretty excited about what we'll be doing. It'll be a small group, roughly 5 people, maybe growing slowly, but no concerns about running a school, just training, and we'll all be having our own seperate training elsewhere.
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